| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Tombstone Blues |
Posted - 28/02/2008 : 13:37:14
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/news/the-campaign-that-changed-the-eating-habits-of-a-nation-788557.html
Looks like the anti-battery chicken campaign has had some success. |
| 27 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| thedelboy |
Posted - 10/03/2008 : 01:09:39
err I hope the ducks are deceased prior to being marinated in the soy and cider vinegar otherwise they will be decidely miffed at the experience that we dont know they know what they are experienceing (Bloudy hell I will never be able to sleep now) |
| Tombstone Blues |
Posted - 09/03/2008 : 23:32:37
quote:
Originally posted by Fluffy Sheep
Well how about Duck? Baste it with a mix of soy sauce and cider vinegar for a real crispy skin...
no guilt trip unless you have a pond with ducks...
The memsahib and I just got back from a few days in Valencia - lovely place,lots of historic buildings, great people, cafes and restaurants where the food is wonderful and you can smoke . . .and a nice little bar where we called in for a glass or two of spanish brandy on our way back to the hotel (I've decided that the two greatest products of Spain are Brandy and Penelope Cruz) . . .
Anyway, one the the meals I had was duck in honey and lemon sauce with asparagus and red peppers, gorgeous, the best duck I've ever had. |
| NewMember |
Posted - 09/03/2008 : 22:24:54
Crispy Duck? Racing for the pancakes! |
| Fluffy Sheep |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 22:29:59
Well how about Duck? Baste it with a mix of soy sauce and cider vinegar for a real crispy skin...
no guilt trip unless you have a pond with ducks... |
| NewMember |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 10:11:09
quote:
Originally posted by Daveb
KFC anyone?
 |
| Daveb |
Posted - 07/03/2008 : 19:31:51
KFC anyone? |
| NewMember |
Posted - 07/03/2008 : 19:25:01
But how can our experience of the experience that the chickens' experience ever be known, unless we can positively say that what we have experienced is the same as the experience that the chicken did experience, and for that the experience experienced must be exactly the same - that is the chicken must experience what we experience with the same ecological validity. Negatively, if we cannot experience the experience that a chicken is to experience because the experience of our experience is in fact different from the experience that the chicken experienced, then our expectations of our experience, or the expectations of what the chicken experiences, whether positive or negative, cannot be justified in any way. |
| Miriam Binder |
Posted - 06/03/2008 : 13:49:46
quote:
Originally posted by moon23
So basically it's about people not wanting to experience what they expect is pain in chickens because by experiencing what we expect is pain in chicken we find it easier to inflict the experience of pain on people for whom past experience suggests are certainly capable of realizing the duality between positive and negative experience.
You can judge a man by how he keeps his chickens.
ps (I didn't expect you to come back with such an rewarding experince)
Yep! |
| moon23 |
Posted - 06/03/2008 : 13:46:36
quote:
Originally posted by Fluffy Sheep
I actually read all that...now I`ll have to go and lie down!
Of dear I didn't expect it to be such a negative experince for you. |
| moon23 |
Posted - 06/03/2008 : 13:45:38
quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
quote:
Originally posted by moon23
I agree that chicken’s mostly only experience, although of course this is only our expectations about what a chicken may or may not expect; and our expectations about chickens are based on our observable experiences of chickens. I do expect that there are some occasions where chickens expect to experience a certain experience because past experiences have created expectations. Although experience suggests I am on occasions mistaken.
It is precisely because we expect that chickens only experience, that I suggest that it isn't cruel to subject chickens to what we would term 'negative experiences' because what we deem negative is only realized in dialectic with positive experience.
However it is our experience of the experience that the chicken experiences that leads us to expect that we experience the expectation of the chicken as it experiences the expectation that it experiences. We therefore are not really concerned with the fact that the chicken experiences or expects to experience but rather we are more concerned with our expectation of the experience that the chicken experiences. So in truth by eliminating negative experiences from the chicken, regardless of whether or not the chicken is in fact truly capable of expecting such negative, or conversely positive, experience we are in reality minimising our experience of negative experience.
(PS: I love you Moon!)
So basically it's about people not wanting to experience what they expect is pain in chickens because by experiencing what we expect is pain in chicken we find it easier to inflict the experience of pain on people for whom past experience suggests are certainly capable of realizing the duality between positive and negative experience.
You can judge a man by how he keeps his chickens.
ps (I didn't expect you to come back with such an rewarding experince) |
| Fluffy Sheep |
Posted - 06/03/2008 : 09:28:12
I actually read all that...now I`ll have to go and lie down! |
| Miriam Binder |
Posted - 05/03/2008 : 16:30:36
quote:
Originally posted by moon23
I agree that chicken’s mostly only experience, although of course this is only our expectations about what a chicken may or may not expect; and our expectations about chickens are based on our observable experiences of chickens. I do expect that there are some occasions where chickens expect to experience a certain experience because past experiences have created expectations. Although experience suggests I am on occasions mistaken.
It is precisely because we expect that chickens only experience, that I suggest that it isn't cruel to subject chickens to what we would term 'negative experiences' because what we deem negative is only realized in dialectic with positive experience.
However it is our experience of the experience that the chicken experiences that leads us to expect that we experience the expectation of the chicken as it experiences the expectation that it experiences. We therefore are not really concerned with the fact that the chicken experiences or expects to experience but rather we are more concerned with our expectation of the experience that the chicken experiences. So in truth by eliminating negative experiences from the chicken, regardless of whether or not the chicken is in fact truly capable of expecting such negative, or conversely positive, experience we are in reality minimising our experience of negative experience.
(PS: I love you Moon!) |
| moon23 |
Posted - 05/03/2008 : 15:28:13
quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
A chicken doesn't expect. It experiences!
I agree that chicken’s mostly only experience, although of course this is only our expectations about what a chicken may or may not expect; and our expectations about chickens are based on our observable experiences of chickens. I do expect that there are some occasions where chickens expect to experience a certain experience because past experiences have created expectations. Although experience suggests I am on occasions mistaken.
It is precisely because we expect that chickens only experience, that I suggest that it isn't cruel to subject chickens to what we would term 'negative experiences' because what we deem negative is only realized in dialectic with positive experience. |
| moon23 |
Posted - 05/03/2008 : 15:21:24
quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
quote:
Originally posted by moon23
If a chicken is born in a cage and has lived in a cage all of its life then it wouldn't expect anything better. If a chicken has only known cruelty then wouldn't this be normalized?
So if we mistreat a person from the moment it is born then being mistreated becomes normal?
Yes like the people brought up by animals who think they are animals.
If you born in an empty room which had no doors or windows and lived in it all your life, how would you know you were in a room?
I wonder if from the moment at which a foetus could experience pain you made it experience pain whether it would actually feel pain.
For instance now we think we are free living on earth, but perhaps really we are trapped by aliens to exist only in this dimension. Right now some of these Aliens could be protesting to free Humans from their cruel confinement on Earth and to allow us to roam freely as pan-dimensional entities across time and space. From their prospective our wings are clipped, but from our perspective where we know nothing of the other dimensions this is the entire and whole world.
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| Miriam Binder |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 19:31:43
A chicken doesn't expect. It experiences! |
| Fluffy Sheep |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 18:48:45
Maybe ours didn`t expect anything better, but they certainly thrived on it. |
| Miriam Binder |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 17:07:58
quote:
Originally posted by moon23
If a chicken is born in a cage and has lived in a cage all of its life then it wouldn't expect anything better. If a chicken has only known cruelty then wouldn't this be normalized?
So if we mistreat a person from the moment it is born then being mistreated becomes normal? |
| moon23 |
Posted - 04/03/2008 : 17:01:55
If a chicken is born in a cage and has lived in a cage all of its life then it wouldn't expect anything better. If a chicken has only known cruelty then wouldn't this be normalized? |
| Fluffy Sheep |
Posted - 03/03/2008 : 20:54:20
 I need to show my daughter that post, Mim. She will, I`m sure, say that she went through similar life-changing experiences in her early teens, but only on a `long-weekend` basis when the whole family got into doing Tenth Century re-enactment. We had a lot of cold wet weekends to get through `authentically`, but at least we never had to think about scorpions...
Great days though. We were all only HALF glad to get back to `normality`, whilst half wishing we could stay living that way for longer.. |
| Miriam Binder |
Posted - 03/03/2008 : 20:27:21
HA! The memories this invokes ... Years ago when we first moved to Israel, mum had decided that if we were going to be pioneers we were going to do it properly. We ended up in a collection of tents and half built lean-to's about 21 kilometres down from Dimona heading towards Eilat. Three kids from a 700 year old town in Southern Holland suddenly had to learn to milk goats, haul water, watch out for scorpions and deal with that Damned Rooster! Gathering the eggs was taking your life in your hands. That rooster would fly at you making a god awful squawking screeching noise and his talons would go straight for your face. Getting away from him would earn you a head butt from Natanyahu the billy goat that was penned up right next to the chicken coop. Was it really 40 years ago? |
| Fluffy Sheep |
Posted - 03/03/2008 : 20:08:36
Many years ago, we had six `retired` hens. (Do skip this bit folks who`ve heard it before)
NOT that we had a smallholding, or any experience of keeping livestock other than household pets, just an abnormally large rambling garden on the edge of a housing estate. NOT that we ever wanted to keep hens at all, it was a neglectful neighbour who bought them cheap from a battery farm, thinking he`d make a profit from not feeding them and just collect eggs that he`d sell...the poor things used to roam in ours and other neighbours` gardens, living on stealing dogfood from kitchens if you left a door open, bread that was thrown out for the sparrows, etc. My late Hubby used to throw handfulls of leftover boiled rice and bits of bread, etc., into the neglectful neighbour`s garden, to encourage the hens to go home.
It had the opposite effect, the hens got to know the sound of his voice, his cough, his whistle when he called the dogs/cats in, and even the sound of our car (I didn`t drive then), and they`d all come running to greet him - the only human in the vicinity who took any notice of them a[part from shooing them away...
Neighbour got sick of the complaints and the lack of eggs (because they were being laid in other folks` pampas grass and `nesty-looking` bushes, under `off-road` cars, etc.) and he said he was getting rid of the hens.
We felt sorry for them. You can guess the rest, even if you`ve not heard it before!
They were just brilliant, when given a small shed to call `home`, with some straw and old pallet wood shelves to roost and lay eggs on, and a regular diet. They had so much ATTITUDE, by this time! The eggs were wonderful, tough shells, no anaemic yolks! Our fosterlings and their friends, and our friends` children when visiting would be told to go and get themselves an egg. Some of those fried egg sandwiches form indelible childhood memories. If we told the kids `go pick yourself some raspberries`, they`d come in with a few berries each, if they were lucky, on account of the hens trying to keep them away. The dominant one, a black hen, my son had named `Attila the Hen`, and the five brown ones were collectively referred to as `the Atillary`. But all of us, kids and adults, addressed them as `LADIES!`, and anyone who went out to feed them and shouted `Ladies!` got the same response. They held their own in our garden, though, our cats, dogs and kids learnt to respect them. What we gained in Eggs we lost in Raspberries.
Four and a half years till I get to `retire`. One thing on my list for then is Keeping a Few Hens...
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| NewMember |
Posted - 02/03/2008 : 18:53:52
Going Feral Fluffy? I can't see what problem a wild chicken would cause! :) As for keeping them out of trouble, I guess that if a herd of cows trampled them we could lose a few, but with a perhaps naive view I can picture cows or sheep roaming a field, with the chickens all clucking away together in a corner? |
| Miriam Binder |
Posted - 02/03/2008 : 18:53:17
The chickens that lay our egss are not the chickens that end up as our Sunday Roast. |
| Fluffy Sheep |
Posted - 02/03/2008 : 15:53:37
I think the free range ones get their wings clipped anyway, but it`s more to keep them out of trouble than stop them flying off and going feral... |
| NewMember |
Posted - 02/03/2008 : 14:49:49
A subject I know nothing about - is there a reason why chickens can't have their wings clipped and be allowed to roam freely in fields with cows and sheep? More labour intensive perhaps, and I assume some people would be appalled about clipping their wings but is this at all a viable proposition? |
| Miriam Binder |
Posted - 29/02/2008 : 01:42:30
Surely there must somewhere be a happy medium between giving the chickens single room accommodations - without surcharge supplement - and cramming them into the equivalent of sardines cans? |
| camelot |
Posted - 29/02/2008 : 00:31:51
I am not a big fan of cruelty, to animals or humans. But this whole anti cruelty approach to livestock and fowl batteries is a bit shaky at the foundations. I mean, does it make sense to place chickens in individual condos with all the amenities before they are butchered for the pot?
The reason I think it's a bad idea to crowd anything into small pens is because of the likelihood of disease, and the corresponding increase in antibiotics to counter it. A little separation and fresh air goes a long way to insure health with animals and humans, and keeps a few of our antibiotics useful.
PS Liked the part about free range chickens from France. I can see the farmers now tossing chickens into the fields..."run U crazzy chickens...run free... OK now ship them across the channel.." |
