| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Daveb |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 09:24:06
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7280971.stm
Another move by Brown and his nasty new labour party to introduce unpopular ideas by the stealth. This time it is not a tax. They are trying to divide and conquer.
Students are split, others will not care, yet!
Stinky, nasty or just downright cold calculating? |
| 17 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| NewMember |
Posted - 09/03/2008 : 21:33:10
quote:
Originally posted by Dingo
Only if there is legislation making it so. The are quite strong controls over the police on what constitutes suspicion and I'm sure you wont be surprised that potential litigation is also a factor.
Thank you for your support on this point Dingo  |
| Fluffy Sheep |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 22:24:07
I`m just thinking that years ago when not many folks travelled abroad or had a passport, that was a hefty bit of ID. Now, even if someone doesn`t intend to travel abroad, having a passport is one of the ID items asked for just to open a bank account.
A friend who is a university lecturer, with no interest or intention of foreign travel, was asked to sign another friends` passport application, but is ineligible to do so as he isn`t a passport holder himself. How daft is it all getting?
Everyone having an ID card might simplify some of the nonsense.
OK, the powers that be would find other nonsense to beset us with, I suppose.
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| Dingo |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 20:14:36
Yes. They will be useful or made so for certain parts of our society. Without Big Brother (Orwellian) laws there would be little reason to have them. I think that if it goes ahead it will be a money pit as you say and possibly quite intrusive. The British Police are under pretty tight control, other organisations that would have access to our details may not be. I haven't even gone into the rights of European groups that may also have access. |
| Miriam Binder |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 19:34:28
Then effectively the ID cards will make no discernible difference to anything. In which case there is really very little reason to have them other then of course it is going to be a money pit. |
| Dingo |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 19:31:06
Only if there is legislation making it so. The are quite strong controls over the police on what constitutes suspicion and I'm sure you wont be surprised that potential litigation is also a factor. |
| Miriam Binder |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 19:26:06
But isn't that the point though ... with ID cards not having one could well constitute 'cause for suspicion' ... |
| Dingo |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 19:10:23
NewMember is correct in as far as not having to give your name on demand if you have done nothing suspicious. If suspected of an offence then different criteria come in to play.
I have reservations about identity cards mainly around the security of the data and who would have access. Unless there is a specific offence of not carrying one there will be many that do not bother and their value will be reduced.
Miriam, there is an option 3 that could be made available, a fine. This Government seems particularly fond of them. |
| NewMember |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 18:54:19
With regards to 'If the police require you to, you do not have much choice in the matter'.. YES YOU DO. You could be a wanted murderer, tell them your name is Alan Parkinson of 6 Radius Court, Hackney, London. Unless they suspected you of committing a crime, they could do nothing
Regarding 'The point being that? (or is it just pedantry a case of crossing the t and dotting the i)'. No, reality - please see above.
With regards to driving a vehicle, you are correct. Without a vehicle, you are not a driver and have nothing to prove
With regards to Police time, I know they are really pushed at this time. I am simply giving my opinion in what is supposed to be a discussion forum, about what I believe the reason for identity cards to be.
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| Miriam Binder |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 17:04:47
quote:
Originally posted by NewMember
With regards to 'In other words, not much different from what is occurring now', yes completely different. You do not have to prove who you are when you are stopped by Police. Yes, if you want to claim benefits or open bank accounts, proof is required. But one does not need either to live here.
If the police require you to, you do not have much choice in the matter.
quote:
Originally posted by NewMember
With regards to 'We all need to prove our identity or our legibility for accessing services' Indeed, but not for all services.
The point being that? (or is it just pedantry a case of crossing the t and dotting the i).
By the way, what do you think the request for your NI number is? Every individual who is either a resident of this country or pays taxation in this country has a unique NI number which they are given access to just before their 16th birthday.
quote:
Originally posted by NewMember
With regards to your scenario regarding the panicking woman, if the Police had no reason to doubt her, or if she could produce other identification, then they would let her off - or, stay with her until she retrieves it. To produce documents within 7 days? Not an option - they could be anybody
Which is what happens now ... you need to produce your driving license, MOT and insurance certificate ... at a police station of your choice within a given number of days. And if you honestly think that alternative identification is sufficient then there is no real need for the extremely costly and invasive biometric ID card.
Further, do you honestly think that the police will have time to hang around while someone manages to get their identify card? Are you anticipating maybe an increase in the number of police officers? It would need at least two officers for every person that needs to 'retrieve' their ID.
quote:
Originally posted by NewMember
Finally, NO - I do not like the idea of a Police state. Saying that, I don't like the state of this Country in its present form either
There is something to be said for ensuring that the cure is not worse then the disease. The disease may not be to your liking, but the 'cure' is infinitely worse. |
| NewMember |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 16:19:52
With regards to 'In other words, not much different from what is occurring now', yes completely different. You do not have to prove who you are when you are stopped by Police. Yes, if you want to claim benefits or open bank accounts, proof is required. But one does not need either to live here. .
With regards to 'We all need to prove our identity or our legibility for accessing services' Indeed, but not for all services.
With regards to your scenario regarding the panicking woman, if the Police had no reason to doubt her, or if she could produce other identification, then they would let her off - or, stay with her until she retrieves it. To produce documents within 7 days? Not an option - they could be anybody
Finally, NO - I do not like the idea of a Police state. Saying that, I don't like the state of this Country in its present form either |
| Miriam Binder |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 14:02:59
quote:
Originally posted by NewMember
Absurd? It will become criminalised to not carry it with you at all times. Police and other security staff will be given the power to demand production - anyone not here legally will not have one Miriam and one by one many will be exposed - not all of them of course, but many.
In other words, not much different from what is occurring now. We all need to prove our identity or our legibility for accessing services. The only way this would actually make a difference is if it became compulsory to carry your ID with you at all times. What would happen if you got a telephone call saying your great-aunt Sheila has had a fall and you need to get to the hospital ASAP. You rush out of the house, leaving your ID behind in your eagerness to rush to her side. The police stop you and require you to produce your ID. You stammer ... 'Oh dear officer, I have forgotten to stick it in my back pocket ... My aunt ... I rushed, panicked forgot' ...
Option 1. "Never mind madam, just make sure you present yourself at a police station within the next 7 days with the relevant document.'
Option 2. "WHAT????? No ID??? Off with your head! (okay maybe not with your head but you will certainly get hauled to the nearest holding cell there to wait till someone has been able to confirm you are indeed the person you claim to be).
The only way the 'catching' (in any significant numbers) of unauthorised individuals in this country would occur is if option 2 was to become the norm. And any place where that is the norm is no longer a free democratic country but a police state!
Now you may like the idea of living in a police state. Me, I think the price is too high. |
| NewMember |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 13:49:22
quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
Absurd ... there is no way that those that are not supposed to be in this country are going to apply for an ID card. So how do you propose this 'counting' takes place?
Absurd? It will become criminalised to not carry it with you at all times. Police and other security staff will be given the power to demand production - anyone not here legally will not have one Miriam and one by one many will be exposed - not all of them of course, but many. |
| Miriam Binder |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 12:54:46
Absurd ... there is no way that those that are not supposed to be in this country are going to apply for an ID card. So how do you propose this 'counting' takes place? |
| NewMember |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 12:48:31
I don't think the Government will find any way, other than by issuing ID cards, to find out how many people are living in this Country. A Country that doesn't know its population is insecure on a national level. However, when they find out that say there are 1 million people living here illegally, what are they going to do about it? Will it unite all of us 'legal' citizens, regardless of skin colour, and language, against the illegal ones, or will it just whip up further media storms, inflame the ever-present inter and intra race tensions, and push society even further apart? |
| Miriam Binder |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 10:53:25
The No2ID card e-petition has now closed with upward of 30,000 signatires. However there is still this:
You can get if from here |
| FUBAR |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 10:44:24
I am becoming more annoyed at this ongoing push for a useless ID card and an unworkable data base that the gov keep on pushing for. Of what use is a voluntary scheme or one where you don't have to carry it round with you.
POLICE--"Excuse me sir may I see your ID card, oh you don't have it with you. Bring it into the station next week then, here let me help you with that large backpack you have there"...
It won't protect you from anything unless the card is big enough to hide behind and about six inches thick. What we will have is a data base for over 60 million of us that has to be updated daily, so when a mistake is made how hard will it be to get it corrected or what happens when an insider is used to steal or falsify information on the system. It's a pity there isn't a petition to sign and let the gov know we will not have an ID card even when they try to force them on us. I mean they can only rule with our agreement if we all just ignore the ID scheme how will it work, and they can't lock us ALL up can they... |
| Miriam Binder |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 09:27:17
I'd say stinky, nasty, coldly calculated and downright sneaky. Hit them when they are young and before you know it, it has become the norm. They won't need to legislate because the process of time will mean that we will all end up on their biometric database. |
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