| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| long time no see |
Posted - 13/01/2008 : 10:07:53
http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/programmes/thebigquestions/
You can watch this great debate free on the above link
it takes you to the bbc iplayer then click the big question square.
The first topic on this Debate
is about how Muslim Community's
are effecting some areas of the UK.
Great Debate. |
| 23 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Miriam Binder |
Posted - 05/04/2008 : 15:08:27
That is true and it need not be a wife ... it could be a son or daughter or anyone really. |
| Daveb |
Posted - 05/04/2008 : 15:01:00
That would make sense.
You can still only have one named next of kin though.
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| Miriam Binder |
Posted - 05/04/2008 : 14:50:10
It depends on where he was married I think Daveb ... if he married where multiple wives are legal then the wives are accepted as legal wives. |
| Daveb |
Posted - 05/04/2008 : 14:46:21
I tend to think his business is why he was not banned.
It is however illegal to have more than one wife in the UK is it not?
If that is the law of the land then religion should pay no part. |
| Miriam Binder |
Posted - 05/04/2008 : 14:35:02
Do we know whether he is the only one who has been allowed to plead mitigating circumstances? If there are others then surely you cannot claim that it is only because of his religion that he was fined and given points on his licence rather then instant disqualification? |
| Anubis |
Posted - 05/04/2008 : 13:47:38
quote:
Originally posted by Daveb
I must assume he will not be arrested for Bigamy on religious grounds?
Precisely, Dave, precisely! Oh if only I were still a teenager, it would have been Islam for me. Four wives rotated daily, fast cars and no speed limits and then, when I'd thoroughly exhausted myself, blow myself up for the Almighty and collect my 70 virgins --- unless something tragic happened .........
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| Daveb |
Posted - 05/04/2008 : 09:24:47
I must assume he will not be arrested for Bigamy on religious grounds? |
| Anubis |
Posted - 05/04/2008 : 09:15:50
Islam appears to be "changing British streets" in more ways than one!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=557331&in_page_id=1766&ito=1490
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| Fluffy Sheep |
Posted - 03/04/2008 : 21:35:29
Increasingly more and more folks do have to work shifts, Daveb, but this is Muslims, Christians, and Atheists alike. School holidays, the sound of kids playing...that`s the noise I hear most folks complain about when they`re on nights, even the parents of those kids - and that`s rather sad, really. It`s simple enough though, to see why, it`s not `regular` noise that you can block out and grow to ignore. |
| Daveb |
Posted - 01/04/2008 : 20:18:53
Call to prayer, church bells, music or noisy neighbours if it you find it too loud or it keeps you awake then it should not happen!
What if you have to work shifts etc.... |
| Borninhove |
Posted - 01/04/2008 : 14:53:30
quote:
isn't a call to prayer the same as church bells ringing in Christian churches
At 4.46 am - Sunrise time in Brighton in June - 7 days a week.
Mind you, I should be honest here, after 15 years I don't ever hear the call to prayer any more - it has become so commonplace I don't even notice it. However, last February I was in Holland for a few days and it was really nice to hear the church bells!
About the parking I agree! Here on Friday it seems the faithful has special dispensation from the normal laws of parking (such as they are) and that blocking up most of a road while attending Fridays prayers is totally acceptable, although not a little inconvenient for those of us not inside! |
| camelot |
Posted - 01/04/2008 : 05:38:21
Yes, I see you point BiH, but isn't a call to prayer the same as church bells ringing in Christian churches. I had a Roman Catholic Church not far from my apartment at college that rang the bell on the quarter hour almost 24/7/365. Eventually, (perhaps because I lived near the "L" train in Chicago) I did not even notice it unless it stopped. The biggest complaint about new mosques in my area is the parking problem...something you in Brighton/Hove can identify with if what I have read is true … |
| Borninhove |
Posted - 01/04/2008 : 04:34:24
Great! I'll just get these installed in the minaret and soon we'll be able to share the adhan with all our neighbours!
Allah Akbar (Allah is The Greatest)
2x Ash-hadu an la ilaha illallah (I bear witness that there is no lord except Allah)
2x Ash-hadu anna Muhammadan rasulullah (I bear witness that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah)
2x Hayya 'alas-salat (Make haste towards prayer)
2x Hayya 'alal-falah (Make haste towards welfare)
2x Allah u akbar (Allah is greatest )
1x La ilaha illallah (There is no lord except Allah)
And these go up to 11 ...
By the way, the Fajr prayer (the first of the 5 daily prayers) is just before dawn.
Sleep well.
|
| Fluffy Sheep |
Posted - 31/03/2008 : 21:58:16
I`ve no objection to there being mosques, changing buildings and the way they are used is an ongoing fact...Many Welsh villages have a surfeit of disused chapels that get converted into carpet or furniture warehouses, or very desirable residences with mezzanine floors, and eventually mosques will be converted for some other use too, no doubt. In the meantime, if the folks who attend them find positive and peaceful meaning there, that`s fine by me! |
| No Expert |
Posted - 31/03/2008 : 21:03:56
quote:
Originally posted by Borninhove
And that was just a very quick search. I don't remember any of them when I left the UK in 1986. So I guess the answer to the question posed by this thread is yes. The next question is 'Is this a good thing?'
Yeah, why not? We accespt Jocks and micks don't we  |
| Anubis |
Posted - 30/03/2008 : 14:00:46
quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
Fascinating. Where did you get that from?
A number of sources, Miriam, but for starters try Mary Boyce Zoroastrians – Their Religious Beliefs and Practices (1979). Mary died a couple of years ago (if I remember right) -- there's plenty about her (and her research) on the internet! |
| Borninhove |
Posted - 30/03/2008 : 11:54:38
Back to the original topic - Is Islam changing Britain's streets? - here is a handy website for you: http://www.mosques.co.uk/
A quick search and voila:quote:
Organisation Name: Al-Madina
City: Brighton
Address: 24 Bedford Place (off Western Road)
View Location Map
Post Code: BN1
Contact Tel: 01273 737721
Email Address:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Organisation Name: Masjid Al Quds
City: Brighton
Address: 150 Dyke Road
View Location Map
Post Code: BN1
Contact Tel: 01273 505247
Email Address:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Organisation Name: Shahjalal Muslim Cultural Centre
City: Brighton
Address: 252 Portland Road Hove
View Location Map
Post Code: BN3
Contact Tel: 01273 323990
Email Address:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Organisation Name: Madina Mosque
City: Brighton
Address: 21a Bedford Place
View Location Map
Post Code: BN1 2PT
Email Address:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Organisation Name: Brighton Mosque / Muslim Community Centre
City: Brighton
Address: 150 Dyke Road
View Location Map
Post Code: BN1 5PA
Email Address:
Worthing Islamic Cultural Centre - Masjid Assalam
City: Worthing
Address: Ivy Arch Road
View Location Map
Post Code: BN14
Contact Tel: 01903 215163
Email Address:
Eastbourne Mosque
City: Eastbourne
Address: Old Seeboard Club Ashford Square
View Location Map
Post Code: BN21 3TX
Email Address:
Islamic Cultural Centre/Mosque
City: Crawley
Address: 157 London Road
View Location Map
Post Code: RH10 2TA
Email Address:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Organisation Name: Quwatul Islam Masjid
City: Crawley
Address: Broadway Rise Broad Feld
View Location Map
Post Code: RH11 9SE
Email Address:
And that was just a very quick search. I don't remember any of them when I left the UK in 1986. So I guess the answer to the question posed by this thread is yes. The next question is 'Is this a good thing?' |
| Miriam Binder |
Posted - 30/03/2008 : 11:29:04
Fascinating. Where did you get that from? |
| Anubis |
Posted - 30/03/2008 : 11:17:20
quote:
Originally posted by Daveb
Programme no longer available.
However, of course a huge influx of any foreign culture or religion will change any country. It has been going on for years.
The question is how long before the foreign culture becomes the prominent native culture and if the process is peaceful or not?
The inter-mixing of beliefs ……
When I read sites like this (along with the constant threats from our ‘leaders’ aimed at the islamic Republic of Iran), the thought often occurs that probably most Christians are totally ignorant of the fact that most of the distinguishing doctrines of the early Christian Church originated not in Israel but in ancient Persia (i.e Iran) – or, more specifically, in the theology of Zoroaster.
As we know, human kind has always held some sort of eschatological belief –that the world as we know it will in some sense continue beyond the grave. Archaeological evidence from the Upper Palaeolithic Age (30,000 – 10,000 BC) suggests that even then it was not only believed that life continued after death; the dead were interred with their utensils and weapons. Even the distant relation of ‘homo sapiens’, Neanderthal Man, buried his dead, so we can say with reasonable certainty that ‘life after death’ beliefs have been around for at least 70,000 years.
Implicit in any belief of ‘life after death’ is dissatisfaction with the thought that this life might be ‘all there is’. One might anticipate that the more unsatisfactory this life appears, the more important the next one will be and the more fervently it will be believed in -- hence. Feuerbach, almost two centuries ago:
“The more empty life is, the fuller, thJavascript:italicize();e more concrete is God. The impoverishing of the real world and the enriching of God is one act.”
The oldest known comprehensive eschatological doctrine is Iranian Zoroastrianism – instituted by a reforming priest and prophet from the Bronze Age, about 1500 BC; his was the first comprehensive doctrine of one creator, a cosmic struggle engulfing a dualistic creation and the need for a moral struggle against evil. Our knowledge of his teachings is based on the seventeen Gathas (songs or odes) attributed to him; his Book of Primal Creation posits two primal principles, Ahura Mazda, good and pure, and Angra Mainyu, wholly malignant and ignorant, both ‘uncreated’ and perpetually at war with one another for the possession of human souls
Zoroaster taught complete happiness required a re-union of ‘soul’ and ‘body’; his future ‘kingdom’ being very much of this earth. At death, the link between ‘soul’ and ‘body’ is severed, Evil takes over and destroys the body. For three days (sic!) the human soul hovers anxiously over the body; on the fourth day it is ‘judged’ by a Tribunal (presided over by Mithra), where the soul is ‘weighed’. If the finding is a preponderance of good deeds, the soul is escorted to ‘Heaven’, otherwise to ‘Hell’ or ‘Purgatory’. However, this ‘judgement’ of the soul at death is but a prelude to a general resurrection and ‘Final Judgement’, which will take place at the end of time when all bodies will be resurrected and reunited with their souls; throughout the Gathas is a sense of urgency – now is the time to repent for the end of things is close at hand.
You will have recognized much of the previous paragraphs as precursing many of the fundamentalist Christian beliefs. The important point is that these ideas are strongly opposed to the doctrines of Judaism prior to the Babylonian captivity.
So what had the Jews believed in those earlier days? Pre-Mosaic Jahwism had no individual eschatology; it was concerned only with family and nation. Departed ‘individuals’ were considered only in terms of a form of ‘ancestor worship’; appeasement sacrifices were offered to the dead -- the deceased were never described in terms of a continued individual life. The living and the dead continued to form one family (Rachel in her grave weeps for her children): it was logical for the consequences of sins and virtues to be inherited by future generations. The grave belonged to the family [hence the frequent references to newly deceased being ‘gathered to his fathers’] and refusal of burial in the family tomb was regarded a calamity. Originally, Sheol was the post-mortem abode of ‘the collective of families’ – inhabitants of Sheol had a ‘shade-like’ existence.
The fall of Jerusalem at the beginning of the 6th Century and the consequent forced emigration of some 10,000 officers, fighting men, craftsmen and artisans into Babylonian captivity are well-known events highlighted in Jewish (and Christian) scriptures; the legend of Belshazzar’s feast, immortalized by Rembrandt’s famous painting, and the overwhelming of the city and massacre of its rulers by the Persian invaders under Cyrus the Great in a single night in 539 BC, ended the seventy years of Jewish captivity. Babylonian religion, with its galaxy of Gods, had nothing to offer the former captives -- monotheism was unknown in Babylon.
Cyrus and the Persian court were followers of Zoroaster. They were welcomed as liberators by the Jews, and for varying lengths of time many were happy to live under Persian protection, even after the welcome decree of Cyrus permitting the group, now enlarged to 42,360 plus to return to Jerusalem as and when they so desired. It is hardly surprising, therefore, that the Jews during this period looked favourably upon the doctrines of their Iranian saviours -- a change that is reflected in the writings of the second Isaiah and Ezekiel.
A new assessment of the ‘life after death’ doctrine was being forged. The domain of Sheol was extended to include all humanity, although it was assumed the Gentile oppressors would ‘suffer more’ in that realm. The old argument of the earlier prophets, that the peoples’ misfortunes were the punishment of Jahweh, no longer held water. If God was to remain ‘just’ there had to be a means of redressing the nation’s tribulations, and this could only come about by some sort of post-mortem procedure.
The prophets now sought a renovated world that would recapture the blessedness of the original Eden. They described the future for Israel’s ‘righteous remnant’ as being on earth and where ‘the lion lay down with the lamb, deserts became fertile, an abundance of food, war and want were abolished and perfected man lived in happiness and contentment’. Belief in an all-powerful and all-loving God increasingly demanded that the righteous dead be allowed to participate in the future joy:
“Thy dead shall live, their bodies shall rise.
O dwellers in the dust, awake and sing for joy!”
wrote the later Isaiah (a text that contrasts so strongly with the pre-exile scriptures!).
The exile experience helped produce another profound modification of Hebrew theology:
The earlier view had been that ‘soul’ represented the unity of body and spirit:
“Dust thou art and unto dust shalt thou return”.
Association with Iranian thought had introduced a new dualistic dimension. As the body obviously rotted away at death, belief in a separate surviving spirit and/or soul became essential. Man rather than being soul was conceived rather as consisting of body and soul. Parallel with this, the non-moral Sheol gave way to ideas more consistent with hopes for a future life based on individual behaviour. Jeremiah was the first Hebrew prophet to conceive religion as the individual’s communication with God:
“ … every one shall die for his own sin.”
a thought re-iterated in Ezekiel:
“The soul that sins shall die.
The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father”.
Although the recompenses awarded are still assumed to be in this life – note the sharp contrast from the earlier quotation, where the son would pay for the father’s sins!.
There was, of course, more paraphernalia in the religion of Zoroaster than detailed here, and allowance must be made for other ‘less central’ (non-Persian?) embellishments of the central doctrines, taken from Babylonian sources -- notions of divine transcendence, the development of angelology and demonology, fantastic symbolism and cosmic imagery, re-interpreting prophecy in combination with visionary inspiration, ‘end of the world’ cataclysm, the messianic delivery and the ‘day of judgement’.
All this additional material returned to Jerusalem with the exiles, but its development would have been the work of lower-class sects rather than the Temple-based rabbis. Over time, many of these sects prospered, incorporating various combinations of these subsidiary elements; the most successful were destined to form the early (albeit conflicting!) Christian communities. All Christ myths regurgitate this material -- the sect that ‘conquered’, Christianity, with its added consolations that helped 'keep the oppressed content' was adopted and institutionalized by a Roman emperor.
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| Miriam Binder |
Posted - 30/03/2008 : 08:55:44
Probably Daveb ... Well, maybe not the exact same problems but very similar ones in any case. |
| Daveb |
Posted - 30/03/2008 : 08:43:51
Do yo think there would be the same problems if this was a Mosque being planned?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7321128.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7244798.stm |
| long time no see |
Posted - 13/01/2008 : 11:17:10
It will be back on there later.
Yes a Bishop said about No Go
Areas in the UK.
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| Daveb |
Posted - 13/01/2008 : 11:02:54
Programme no longer available.
However, of course a huge influx of any foreign culture or religion will change any country. It has been going on for years.
The question is how long before the foreign culture becomes the prominent native culture and if the process is peaceful or not?
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