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Daveb
Discworld


1864 Posts

Posted - 16/03/2008 :  20:33:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Should athletes risk their health?
http://sport.guardian.co.uk/breakingnews/feedstory/0,,-7385023,00.html

Or their morals?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=513362&in_page_id=1770&ct=5

Or should it be bycotted because of human rights?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7299597.stm
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=2285

We're all doomed!

Miriam Binder
Earthsea



United Kingdom
5229 Posts

Posted - 16/03/2008 :  20:35:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No! China is not a fit place to hold the Olympics!

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin
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thedelboy
Discworld



United Kingdom
1001 Posts

Posted - 17/03/2008 :  09:18:15  Show Profile  Send thedelboy a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
"China is just as good as anywhere else " It is the Chinese government that is not suitable to be the hosts,I hope all british and European atheletes boycot the place and as far as the "BOA" are concerned they should come off the substances that they have banned atheletes from usingWell they have to be on something

keep on smiling
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moon23
Calaspia



649 Posts

Posted - 17/03/2008 :  13:32:45  Show Profile  Visit moon23's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I think if Nazi Germany managed to host the Olympics China should be ok.


http://www.moon23.wordpress.com

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Daveb
Discworld



1864 Posts

Posted - 17/03/2008 :  14:29:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes, but look what happened next!

We're all doomed!
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Anubis
Barsoom



230 Posts

Posted - 17/03/2008 :  16:40:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Daveb

Yes, but look what happened next!



Your logic doesn't flow, Dave. I don't have strong views about sport or where it happens, but any opportunity for wide sections of a population to "be in touch" with the wider world community (especially a country with limited press freedom) makes it an ideal venue for me.

There's lots of mythology about Berlin 1936 and yes, of course the Nazi leaders made the most of it .... but, having said that, the hero of the event, the black Jesse Owens, later in life told how he was greeted with greater acclaim by the general population there, then, than he ever received elsewhere, during his lifetime.

Mind you, Berlin 1936 was something for the Nazis to brag about. The german contingent won more gold medals than the rest of the world put together. The stadium was one of the few buildings that more or less survived the war, still standing six years later, when I visited .....
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Daveb
Discworld



1864 Posts

Posted - 17/03/2008 :  21:13:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What happened next was meant to be somewhat flppant.
For an enclosed society to hold these events can bring good.

To be afraid to let atheletes speak their mind is not so good.
What do you think would happen if anyone on the winners rostrom tried something similar to this is support of Tibet?

Anubis you may like this?
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=X3lX_LVBaToC&pg=PA210&lpg=PA210&dq=winners+rostrum+black+panther&source=web&ots=eheidNz4j2&sig=-7ozbjA9nVzMOWqb2Ki04_GT_PQ&hl=en#PPA211,M1 Page 210

China is without doubt a rising world power and like to Nazi Germany will not hesitate to take what it wants to feed its growth.

We're all doomed!
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Anubis
Barsoom



230 Posts

Posted - 17/03/2008 :  22:49:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Is my brain disintegrating fast? I could have sworn I saw a note about a "wise old American" from LTNS --- but when I logged on to comment, it had disappeared?! I really know very little about Tibet -- but look at any atlas of the last hundred years and you'll see Tibet has throughout that time been a Chinese province. Although it's the way of western propaganda, to speak of the Chinese "invading" Tibet is a bit like claiming the British have "invaded" the Isle of Wight. Admittedly, since 1949 and Mao's revolution, there has been a 'Tibetan problem' arising from the 'theocracy' existent there (listen to their 'spiritual leader' -- the small excerpts we get from the BBC are sufficient to judge for yourself; I remember the early times when the advent of communism and the associated moves to introduce skeleton medical services involving 'compulsory' vaccinations et. al. ran into difficulties as their brand of Buddhism (of course) opposes the taking of all forms of life ... and that includes bacteria! In the world of the future we should look forward to 'full independence' for all communities: Scots, Welsh, Tibetans et al, et al. If it's tyrannies we campaign against, I really think Chinese 'interventions' in Tibet are not the top priority ....

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thedelboy
Discworld



United Kingdom
1001 Posts

Posted - 18/03/2008 :  09:08:57  Show Profile  Send thedelboy a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
I think Britain is becoming a little like China,re "Big brother "kids to have thier "DNA" taken because they could become crooks in later life,who the f*ck dreams these things up?also freedom of speach in Britain is slowly being eroded;you cannot walk 500 yards in Britain without being on cctv.The only saving grace is we do not kill our prisoners just for thier organs (YET)

keep on smiling
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moon23
Calaspia



649 Posts

Posted - 18/03/2008 :  10:04:04  Show Profile  Visit moon23's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yep looks like we might be going the way of state censorship what with this making all smoking films an 18 nonsense.


http://www.moon23.wordpress.com

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Daveb
Discworld



1864 Posts

Posted - 24/03/2008 :  21:38:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7311289.stm

The protests will go on. All this dispite Anubis thinking this is an insignificant struggle for freedom!

We're all doomed!

Edited by - Daveb on 24/03/2008 21:41:08
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long time no see
Earthsea



United Kingdom
6275 Posts

Posted - 24/03/2008 :  22:01:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://news.sky.com/skynews/picture_gallery/0,,70141-1310391,00.html

Yes Daveb he got real close
in that above photo.

But nothing , other than a Nuke going off,
will stop this - it is like a set of Wheels
that has so much Power,
it can never ever be stopped.
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea



United Kingdom
5229 Posts

Posted - 24/03/2008 :  22:06:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Daveb

To be afraid to let atheletes speak their mind is not so good.
What do you think would happen if anyone on the winners rostrom tried something similar to this is support of Tibet?
...
China is without doubt a rising world power and like to Nazi Germany will not hesitate to take what it wants to feed its growth.

You saw the response to the Tibetan flag. However the world doesn't care much for Tibet ... you cannot run industry on yak milk or generate enough power with prayer wheels.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin
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long time no see
Earthsea



United Kingdom
6275 Posts

Posted - 24/03/2008 :  22:10:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Maybe the World is aware of Tibet
but Understands the Massive Power
China now has.
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Daveb
Discworld



1864 Posts

Posted - 24/03/2008 :  22:24:40  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Does the world need China except for cheap labour and as an opportunity to export?

Just what does China contribute right now?
Export of cheap coal maybe but on the backs of miners who suffer in conditions even worse than those in the UK 100 years ago!

So unlucky Tibet, nobody gives a ..............

We're all doomed!
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea



United Kingdom
5229 Posts

Posted - 24/03/2008 :  22:42:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by long time no see

Maybe the World is aware of Tibet
but Understands the Massive Power
China now has.

The world couldn't care less about Tibet ... it never has.

quote:
In 1911 the CHO-YON relationship came to its final end with the fall of the Manchu Dynasty. Tibet formally declared its Independence in 1912 and continued to conduct itself as a fully sovereign nation until its invasion by Communist China an 1949.

1. Tibet governed itself without foreign influence, conducted its own Foreign affairs, had its own army and operated its own postal system. Tibet sovereignty was recognised by its neighbours as well as by Britain, with whom Tibet entered into a series of treaties regarding travels and trade.

2. 1904 Britain invaded Tibet and subsequently Convention agreed between Tibet and Britain.

3. 1912 The last of the Chinese troops expelled from Tibet and Dalai Lama proclaims Tibet Independence.

4. During the Second World War Tibet remained neutral, despite strong pressure from the USA, Britain and China to allow the passage of raw materials through Tibet.

5. Tibet conducted its international relations primarily by dealing with British, Chinese, Nepalese and Bhutanese diplomatic missions in Lhasa, but also through government delegations traveling abroad. When India became independent, the British Mission in Lhasa was replaced by an Indian one.

6. When Nepal applied for membership of the United Nations in 1949, it cited its treaty and diplomatic relations with Tibet to demonstrate its full international personality.

7. If Tibet was part of China, then there was no need for the 17 point agreement which was forced upon the Tibetan delegation to sign in China in 1951 and then China announced to the world that Tibet was liberated (from whom?).

8. From 1951 to 1959 China broke every promise that she made towards Tibet, resulting in the Tibetan uprising against China in March 1959. His Holiness the Dalai Lama and 100,000 Tibetans escaped into exile. From that day onwards Tibet affectively became an occupied country.

9. Today from the legal standpoint, Tibet to this day has not lost its statehood. It is an independent state under illegal occupation. Neither China's military invasion nor the continuing occupation by PLA has transferred the sovereignty of Tibet to China.
here

The Tibetans aren't Palestinians and the Chinese aren't the Israeli. But more importantly, you cannot run industry on yak milk! David and Goliath or Goliath and David ...


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin
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Fluffy Sheep
Discworld



1159 Posts

Posted - 24/03/2008 :  23:16:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
And if it weren`t for the fact that China may host the next Olympics, how many people would have even THOUGHT about Tibet? At least, now, there`s some debate and more folks will be made aware by the controversy. That`s a good thing, I reckon, whatever the outcome of where the Olympics end up being staged!

Row faster, slaves! Caesar wants to waterski!
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long time no see
Earthsea



United Kingdom
6275 Posts

Posted - 24/03/2008 :  23:23:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sure Fluffy
we get to see them Suffer Live on 24/7 News Channels.

Nothing changes
China Marches on, only thing to stop it would be a Nuke going off.
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea



United Kingdom
5229 Posts

Posted - 24/03/2008 :  23:24:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Isn't that the whole point Fluffy ... That many really didn't know. Doesn't that show the degree of indifference there is regarding the fate of the Tibetans?

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin
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Fluffy Sheep
Discworld



1159 Posts

Posted - 25/03/2008 :  00:12:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You pick up a newspaper and flick through it and you get `reality` telly or soap-star news...I say anything that brings folks face on to what is truly reality happening must surely lessen that indifference, it`s indifference borne of ignorance. It wasn`t a topic, before. Now it is...

Row faster, slaves! Caesar wants to waterski!
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea



United Kingdom
5229 Posts

Posted - 25/03/2008 :  02:40:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Maybe ... I know that I have always been aware of Tibet. Maybe that makes me the odd one out but then ... so many things do that already so what is one more.

I suppose what gets me is the sheer hypocrisy of it all ... We never dared take on China and the Tibetans aren't as strident as the Palestinians so we never felt the need to justify our lack of international and media support or the lack of awareness on behalf of the general public that gets its 'causes' spoon-fed by the powers that be - whichever and whatever those powers might be.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin
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Daveb
Discworld



1864 Posts

Posted - 25/03/2008 :  06:34:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The Olmypics have put the spotlight on Tibet.
It is true however that the West picks and choses which oppressed state to "rescue".

This all depends on a mixture of facts.

Oil or other resource
Self Interest
Old Empires
Who the oppostion is
etc.........

Tibet is also only one item on the list of how China should clean up its poor human rights record


We're all doomed!
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Anubis
Barsoom



230 Posts

Posted - 25/03/2008 :  09:39:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There is so much misrepresentation sneaking into this site that further comment needs be made. Rather than listing the points issued by the Dalai Lama's propaganda oiks, look first at exactly who he is, where he came from, how he was placed there. What better source than that of his first major Western disciple, ex SA and later SS member (personally congratulated and photographed with his F#369;hrer), Harrer, who became personal friend and teacher of the Dalai Lama (the 're-incarnated Buddha) during his seven years in Tibet. Here's how the Dalai got his job:






and imagine the task facing the Chinese, bringing their country into the 21st century after centuries of feudalism and theocracy. Highways under construction, but with local workmen wanting to halt the construction every time a worker spots a disturbed earth worm -- a situation anticipated by Heinrich Harrer, whose book I have been citing in this posting:


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Miriam Binder
Earthsea



United Kingdom
5229 Posts

Posted - 25/03/2008 :  11:26:48  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't think you will find many highways through the Himalayas Anubis.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin
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Anubis
Barsoom



230 Posts

Posted - 25/03/2008 :  12:28:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder

I don't think you will find many highways through the Himalayas Anubis.



I have made it quite clear, Miriam, I am no expert on the topic of Tibet.

The stuff posted above is scanned from Heinrich Harrer's Seven Years in Tibet, published in 1953 and therefore more than 50 years out of date. He had left the country with the Chinese (communist) occupation, but included the following remarks in his text -- the latter referring to 'road building', even then! Harrer is/was(!) no friend of Mao!




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Miriam Binder
Earthsea



United Kingdom
5229 Posts

Posted - 25/03/2008 :  12:35:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Neither am I claiming to be an expert on Tibet. I became interested in Tibet apropo to reading up on Far Eastern Religions for a course on comparative religion that I took in my salad days; we've all had brain waves and brain storms - that was just one of mine.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin
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Anubis
Barsoom



230 Posts

Posted - 25/03/2008 :  14:56:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder

Neither am I claiming to be an expert on Tibet. I became interested in Tibet apropo to reading up on Far Eastern Religions for a course on comparative religion that I took in my salad days; we've all had brain waves and brain storms - that was just one of mine.



Snap! Almost the same story .... between first and third degrees I inserted an MA in religious studies, focusing on 'New Testament" and Buddhism. I chose the latter because the philosophy (of Theravāda Buddhism) fitted so well with the Artificial Intelligence I'd been working with. Of course this stuff, the Pali texts, has only marginal relevance to the Tibetan variety!

But I have bugger all knowledge of the 'political' issues with China or anybody else beyond the vague comments I've made on this post! The series on Tibet on BBC4 these Thursdays is rather good, though: I've not seen them all, but the last gave plenty of shots of the roads built in recent times ......
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Daveb
Discworld



1864 Posts

Posted - 25/03/2008 :  20:55:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPvRsLWlDXw/

We're all doomed!
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long time no see
Earthsea



United Kingdom
6275 Posts

Posted - 26/03/2008 :  11:02:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=545450&in_page_id=1770

No Change then and now
Olympics can not be stopped.
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Borninhove
Calaspia



855 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2008 :  13:07:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote


So who is carrying a torch for Konnie?


Valhalla, I am coming!
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long time no see
Earthsea



United Kingdom
6275 Posts

Posted - 06/04/2008 :  13:18:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote



http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1311912,00.html

Yes they Snatched her Torch for a brief moment.

China TV will do a great deal of Editing.





Edited by - long time no see on 06/04/2008 22:07:53
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