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moon23
Calaspia
841 Posts |
Posted - 21/05/2008 : 09:19:26
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Here is an email from Prof. Ross Anderson leading Computer Security Expert
From: Ross Anderson <.... >
Date: Tue, 20 May 2008 17:05:17 +0100
Subject: New database
To: NO2ID General Secretary <general.secretary@no2id.net>
> Have written to the Times correcting their story, and just despatched
> a 700 word piece for the Guardian Comment is Free.
Here's a quick brief I wrote for FIPR AC:
(1) At present an agency with a lawful excuse can get traffic data
from the service provider under RIP. So what's the problem? Well,
thousands of agencies interact with thousands of providers, so it
can't be kept secret - and it turns out that all sorts of access
requests are being made of which the public disapproves. The terrorist
squad getting Captain Hook's itemised phone bill? OK by most; but the
council dog catcher getting your mum's mobile phone records? That
doesn't wash in Worcester!
(2) Centralising the whole business would enable searches to be done
secretly but would entail huge costs. It might be straightforward for
phone companies to hand over itemised phone bills, but to hand over
your web browsing records, ISPs would have to make major and expensive
changes to their core networks. The most likely outcome would be that
those ISPs and other service providers who could move overseas would
do so. (That's why data retention was made a Europe-wide thing.)
BTW we hear that the Treasury is opposed to this, and even the Home
Office seems to realise that the ISPs will have to be paid. It may also
be worth noting that globalised service providers may just not play ball
at all. Gmail isn't available in China; do we want it withdrawn in
England too?
(3) The project is thus not just an a hugely expensive attempt to
escape scrutiny and accountability, but is unlikely to work. It's not
just about whether the Home Office can manage another multibillion
pound database project along with ID cards, and whether the money
should be spent on more cops (or left in taxpayers' pockets). The pace
of technological change leaves them behind as always. People who want
to circumvent surveillance have many ways to do so. For example,
criminals can use massively multuplayer online games as a virtual
meeting place; what's the Home Office to do? Tell all game operators
that they must supply player contact logs? Then there are existing
circumvention tools, such as the package of Tor, Truecrypt and Skype
that's widely used by human-rights workers. We're constantly improving
that. (One of my postdocs is currently funded by Tor.)
(4) the Home Office is unable to manage its existing expensive, and
failing, technology programs. CCTV for example is well know to cut
crime in car parks and essentially nowhere else - but they keep on
pouring in the money, wasted millions after wasted millions.
(5) Then of course there's the fact that mass surveillance is almost
certainly against human rights law. Directed surveillance we can live
with; but we mustn't move from a state in which the government can
watch anybody into a state where the government can watch everybody.
How can the state justify knowing who everyone's lovers, trade union
colleagues and so on are? If what Douwe's been telling us is right,
it just can't. If without mass surveillance the sky must fall, then
fall it must.
**
The argument we can expect them to use is that they want fast
access not just to recent comms data but to comms data going back
many years (that's what distinguishes the spooks from the cops, the
customs etc: the cops want yesterday's comms data, the customs men
want last month's and the spooks want to know who you talked to at
Cambridge when you were a little chicken :-)
Ross
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moon23
Calaspia
841 Posts |
 Posted - 21/05/2008 : 09:22:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Borninhove
quote:
Originally posted by long time no see
A ‘nuclear 9/11’ is a rapidly growing threat.
All the Data can not stop that.
Life In The Fast Lane.
Why not? Why are you so certain that having access to data cannot prevent terrorist attacks? OK, we have had 9/11, 7/7, Madrid, Bali etc., but think of the number of plots that have been foiled just in the UK alone. And how have the authorities managed to thwart them? By using every means possible, including data and communications surveillance. All this nonsense about "Big Brother" and "Nazis" seems to be forgetting one vital point - We are the good guys. When I say "we" I mean Western society.
We are the good guys insofar as we do good things. Mass Surveillance of the population is not a good thing.
Directed Surveillance in specific circumstances where there is evidence of wrong doing is justifiable no one is arguing against that.
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Borninhove
Discworld
1033 Posts |
Posted - 21/05/2008 : 09:31:12
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No Expert, I am probably being observed, but I am still here after 15 years, so I guess nothing I say has been controversial enough.
Moon, I still don't think this is anything to get worked up about. |
 Valhalla, I am coming! |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6333 Posts |
Posted - 21/05/2008 : 09:32:57
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| Apart from everything else, given our track record with public IT projects it is going to be an expensive fiasco. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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moon23
Calaspia
841 Posts |
Posted - 21/05/2008 : 13:00:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Borninhove
No Expert, I am probably being observed, but I am still here after 15 years, so I guess nothing I say has been controversial enough.
Moon, I still don't think this is anything to get worked up about.
You obviously don't care much about your privacy, that's ok some people don't mind everyone knowing what they are doing. Personally I do mind becuase no one has a right to snoop on my personal data unless there is clear evidence i'm going to committ a serious criminal offense.
Over here in the UK the government has allready lost a disk with 25 Million people's details. I'm sure many of us wouldn't want all of our private emails and every single website we have visted lost and in criminal hands as well. |
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Daveb
Earthsea
2521 Posts |
Posted - 21/05/2008 : 13:31:08
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| Net curtains work well! |
We're all doomed!
Head for the hills before they start heading for you! |
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Borninhove
Discworld
1033 Posts |
Posted - 21/05/2008 : 15:52:30
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quote:
Originally posted by moon23
You obviously don't care much about your privacy, that's ok some people don't mind everyone knowing what they are doing. Personally I do mind becuase no one has a right to snoop on my personal data unless there is clear evidence i'm going to committ a serious criminal offense.
This from the guy who has his own website with photos. Doesn't take much snooping to find out all about you. |
Valhalla, I am coming! |
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moon23
Calaspia
841 Posts |
Posted - 21/05/2008 : 16:04:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Borninhove
quote:
Originally posted by moon23
You obviously don't care much about your privacy, that's ok some people don't mind everyone knowing what they are doing. Personally I do mind becuase no one has a right to snoop on my personal data unless there is clear evidence i'm going to committ a serious criminal offense.
This from the guy who has his own website with photos. Doesn't take much snooping to find out all about you.
Yes I choose what information I make public and what I keep private.
If you admire me enougth to find out more about me it is not hard to find out somethings, A picture of me morris dancing, my ip address, maybe if you are clever you could right click on some pictures and see where I host things, my facebook account etc. I'm happy for people to know these things as I choose to put them in the public domain.
There are some private things you will never know about me. Whether I like it up the bum, whether I smoke crack, whether I vote Liberal or Green, whether i'm married, who my sister is, what pub I drink in.
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Daveb
Earthsea
2521 Posts |
Posted - 21/05/2008 : 16:06:50
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It would be quicker to find out what pubs you do not drink in Moon |
We're all doomed!
Head for the hills before they start heading for you! |
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long time no see
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6771 Posts |
Posted - 21/05/2008 : 17:39:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Daveb
It would be quicker to find out what pubs you do not drink in Moon
Meanwhile Terror Gangs are
Not stopped
by any of these Dumb New Labour Ideas. |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6333 Posts |
Posted - 21/05/2008 : 17:58:36
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quote:
Originally posted by long time no see
Meanwhile Terror Gangs are
Not stopped
by any of these Dumb New Labour Ideas.
So ... what is your suggestion then Mr Know-it-all? |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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long time no see
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6771 Posts |
Posted - 21/05/2008 : 18:08:12
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| Get Out of Iraq. |
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Tombstone Blues
Earthsea
2260 Posts |
Posted - 21/05/2008 : 18:10:55
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LTNS Knows all
Terror Gangs will be force-fed Greggs Pasties
This will make them become good people
Who hate Gordon Brown and only want to Bomb Starbucks
Which would be OK
FACT |
Edited by - Tombstone Blues on 21/05/2008 18:11:35 |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6333 Posts |
Posted - 21/05/2008 : 19:00:38
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quote:
Originally posted by long time no see
Get Out of Iraq.
And then everything would be alright? No more terrorists, no hunger, poverty or long waiting lists? |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Borninhove
Discworld
1033 Posts |
Posted - 22/05/2008 : 07:29:21
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quote:
Originally posted by long time no see
quote:
Originally posted by Daveb
It would be quicker to find out what pubs you do not drink in Moon
Meanwhile Terror Gangs are
Not stopped
by any of these Dumb New Labour Ideas.
Not stopped? Do you read the papers??? |
Valhalla, I am coming! |
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moon23
Calaspia
841 Posts |
Posted - 22/05/2008 : 09:13:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Daveb
It would be quicker to find out what pubs you do not drink in Moon
My reputation is doing nicely I see. I can tell you that now DaveB seeing as Big Brother now allready has this information.
I won't drink in any pub that doesn't serve fine cask ale. Although I wouldn't even call these foul places pubs, i'd call them bars. |
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moon23
Calaspia
841 Posts |
Posted - 22/05/2008 : 09:26:12
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No Way can we say this information is safe
With future Governments no one can tell.
It will be passed on to US and EU.
An end to the free Englishman
For fear of the state will stop
Dissent.
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FUBAR
Barsoom
432 Posts |
Posted - 22/05/2008 : 15:32:37
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Well the best way (terrorist) to stop all this (bomb) would be for everyone to (highjack) include provocative words in (iran/iraq) everything they write (AL thingie). That way someone would (armed resistance) have to physically check everything that is (baghdad) written and sent every day(9/11 flying lessons)(pigs will fly)..... |
I came into the world with nothing and still have most of it left.. |
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moon23
Calaspia
841 Posts |
Posted - 22/05/2008 : 16:47:55
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| Fubar is now level 4 risk. |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6333 Posts |
Posted - 22/05/2008 : 20:15:07
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quote:
Originally posted by moon23
Fubar is now level 4 risk.
The way LTNS keeps going on about nuking America he's probably on a red alert tag by now  |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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thedelboy
Discworld
United Kingdom
1465 Posts |
Posted - 23/05/2008 : 09:13:19
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LT is flagged all right,not just by the Americans,all the terrorists have him in thier "Christmass lists" |
keep on smiling |
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long time no see
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6771 Posts |
Posted - 24/05/2008 : 18:38:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
quote:
Originally posted by moon23
Fubar is now level 4 risk.
The way LTNS keeps going on about nuking America he's probably on a red alert tag by now
Why waste time.
They could do far better catching the Terror Gangs
doing it. |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6333 Posts |
Posted - 24/05/2008 : 20:51:41
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quote:
Originally posted by long time no see
Why waste time.
They could do far better catching the Terror Gangs
doing it.
Doing what LTNS? |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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long time no see
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6771 Posts |
Posted - 24/05/2008 : 21:42:00
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The leader of the suicide cell,(Khan)
which killed 52 people in London,
was monitored by MI5.
But he was not considered
a priority and slipped through the net with disastrous consequences.
FACT. |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6333 Posts |
Posted - 24/05/2008 : 22:07:40
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| Yes LTNS ... but that isn't what I asked you ... I asked you doing what LTNS. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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long time no see
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6771 Posts |
Posted - 24/05/2008 : 22:15:37
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Terrorists Murder
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6333 Posts |
Posted - 24/05/2008 : 22:22:39
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quote:
Originally posted by long time no see
Terrorists Murder
Oh I see ... I thought you were quoting me though and I specifically mentioned nuking America or rather, the fact that you are continually going on about nuking America. That's why I asked. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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long time no see
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6771 Posts |
Posted - 24/05/2008 : 22:32:03
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Bush has split this world up,
so it is a matter of time until
the Saudi Gang set out to Destroy America. |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6333 Posts |
Posted - 24/05/2008 : 22:37:32
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quote:
Originally posted by long time no see
Bush has split this world up,
so it is a matter of time until
the Saudi Gang set out to Destroy America.
So you keep saying LTNS and which Saudi gang are you referring to and how are they going to do this destroying? |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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long time no see
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6771 Posts |
Posted - 24/05/2008 : 23:32:27
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| Time Will Tell. |
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Utterly ridiculous!