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moon23
Calaspia
649 Posts |
 Posted - 16/05/2007 : 15:20:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
Moon, Mills on liberty is a philosophical treatise on ideals. Life is a series of compromises and not a sterile ideal. Fact is sweetness, that we have established your freedom from interference can be bought at a price. All we now need to establish is what the price ultimately is.
quote:
You cannot say it is acceptable to 'n' degree but not to 'x', 'y' ... that would be like accepting that you can be a little bit pregnant. State interference should be minimal in a properly functioning democratic society.
Ok Mim so life is a series of compromises, yet previously you have stated a fixed idea that 'there should be no state intervention'. You have also complanied about cavet's being put on this intervention, surley these are simply the compromises you talk about. How does this fit in with your odd your either pregant or your not anaology?
Of course Mill's writing is a ideal, but it is also rational. If you can't guide poltics by refering to these rational ideals that are found within philosophical thought then you reduce it to glib populism. A post-modern cesspit where "nothing is solid and it everything melts into air" Something that Blair has done within his reign. Hopefully it seems that Brown is actually capapble of putting forward a reasonsed argument.
My freedom from interferance hasn't been brought for a price, Like most rational people I accept that there maybe times when freedom should be curtailled in the intersts of protecting society. I accept that Blair and neo-labour have abused this notion, which is why you talk about the 'nanny state'. They have taken it too far and used it to restrict freedoms that shouldn't have been restricted. However there are instances where state intervention is welcome e.g. Drink Driving laws, new smoking ban, laws against carrying guns etc. etc..
The fundenmental differance between these laws and nanny statism is that they protect others which are affected. I agree that there should be no interferance from personal choice which dosn't affect others, which is why I would fine a ban on people smoking in their own homes or in public abhorrent
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http://www.moon23.wordpress.com
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Edited by - moon23 on 16/05/2007 15:25:02 |
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The Duke of Uranus
Barsoom
293 Posts |
Posted - 16/05/2007 : 15:24:40
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quote:
If you can't guide poltics by refering to these rational ideals that are found within philosophical thought then you reduce it to glib populism.
Good heavens man, have you no sense of irony? |
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n/a
deleted
240 Posts |
Posted - 16/05/2007 : 17:14:04
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| to keep it short, a bit more of common sense is needed. |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5229 Posts |
Posted - 16/05/2007 : 17:29:23
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quote:
Originally posted by The Duke of Uranus
quote:
If you can't guide poltics by refering to these rational ideals that are found within philosophical thought then you reduce it to glib populism.
Good heavens man, have you no sense of irony?
Evidently ... |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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n/a
deleted
240 Posts |
Posted - 16/05/2007 : 18:23:16
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| Miriam, since you strongly oppose to this ban, I wonder if you know of other alternative/s to this ban? |
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long time no see
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6275 Posts |
Posted - 16/05/2007 : 18:25:59
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quote:
Originally posted by quest
Miriam, since you strongly oppose to this ban, I wonder if you know of other alternative/s to this ban?
Of course she does not.
The Ban is for all our childrens sake,
and all good workers who have suffered
pathetic Rotten Smokers puffing away.
It is Common Sense.
And it is a Worldwide Move. |
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No Expert
Barsoom
390 Posts |
Posted - 16/05/2007 : 18:45:10
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| How does it affect you? Job centres are non smoking anyway. |
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n/a
deleted
240 Posts |
Posted - 16/05/2007 : 18:52:13
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| LTNS, yes we know that at the end of the day is for the protection of the general public and not about a punishment for smokers, that it is what people against it, want us to believe. |
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nightbird
Calaspia
603 Posts |
Posted - 16/05/2007 : 19:10:08
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Who's going to enforce it, the police have better things to do.
Another law like the use of mobiles while driving near on impossible to enforce on any scale...... |
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n/a
deleted
240 Posts |
Posted - 16/05/2007 : 19:29:32
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| nightbird, people who are affected directly from the smoking they will be quick to react (pub owners, bosses, workers...), this law will bring self-awareness that is not acceptable smoking in public places and in general people tend to respect law rather than break it, at least the smoke will be reduced. |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5229 Posts |
Posted - 16/05/2007 : 19:36:29
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quote:
Originally posted by quest
Miriam, since you strongly oppose to this ban, I wonder if you know of other alternative/s to this ban?
Personally I think it all started going up the Khyber with the death of that unfortunate comedian Roy Castle. The fact that he willingly put himself into an extremely smoky atmosphere because he wanted the limelight of clubs rather then the drudgery of a more conventional 9-5 job appears to have been forgotten in the emotive outcry.
The fact that cars are still free to pollute the atmosphere - and if you look at the air quality for areas such as the gyratory in Brighton for instance and the high incidence of respiratory problems among people that live around there you will have to concede that it their air pollution is not confined to enclosed public spaces - look at the misery and cumulative long term detrimental health effect on those subjected to noise pollution, look at the detrimental effects alcohol consumption has on the long term health and well being of individuals within our society ...
There are lots of ways in which the free choice of one individual impacts negatively on the life, health and wellbeing of other individuals.
The fact is that smokers are a soft target making it possible for the government to claim that it is concerned with the health and wellbeing of our compatriots when in actual fact it is really interested in gaining maximum control over peoples' lives with minimum investment. Accept this type of mass control and before you know it you will be more pliable when the next instance comes up.
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"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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The Duke of Uranus
Barsoom
293 Posts |
Posted - 16/05/2007 : 19:56:14
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quote:
Accept this type of mass control and before you know it you will be more pliable when the next instance comes up.
The next one will be alcohol. According to government stats over 1 million crimes a year involve alcohol(1). Couple that with over a third of people taken into custody by the police have consumed alcohol(2) and over 8000 people a year die from alchol related disease(3) i'd say it's ripe for the nanny government knows best treatment.
1: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/rdsolr3503.pdf
2: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs2/r178.pdf
3: http://tinyurl.com/2xjkmt |
Edited by - The Duke of Uranus on 16/05/2007 19:58:28 |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5229 Posts |
Posted - 16/05/2007 : 20:36:11
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They've already taken the first steps claiming that: quote:
Two years on and Norfolk Square is still clear of drinkers, leaving the area to be enjoyed by residents and the local community without fear of crime, disorder or anti-social behaviour
here
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"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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The Duke of Uranus
Barsoom
293 Posts |
Posted - 16/05/2007 : 20:58:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
They've already taken the first steps claiming that: quote:
Two years on and Norfolk Square is still clear of drinkers, leaving the area to be enjoyed by residents and the local community without fear of crime, disorder or anti-social behaviour
here
Haha, it's a slippery slope i tell ya.
Causing distress to other folk? Check
Easily demonised minority? Check
Health risk? Check
Causing a drain on public coffers? Check
Come in drinkers of the uk, your time is up  |
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FUBAR
Barsoom
389 Posts |
Posted - 16/05/2007 : 21:14:42
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On the one hand the government is banning things that are bad for you and then saying that it is fair for the NHS to not treat ex-smokers as they cause their own illness. And on the other side the government is saying people are living too long after retiring. What I think is that the government wants young people to be healthy, work hard, and pay for their taxes and pensions, and then when you retire they will advocate smoking for the elderly so you die faster and don't collect your pension. Winners all round, unless you want to live past 65........ |
I came into the world with nothing and still have most of it left.. |
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moon23
Calaspia
649 Posts |
Posted - 17/05/2007 : 10:25:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
quote:
Originally posted by quest
Miriam, since you strongly oppose to this ban, I wonder if you know of other alternative/s to this ban?
Personally I think it all started going up the Khyber with the death of that unfortunate comedian Roy Castle. The fact that he willingly put himself into an extremely smoky atmosphere because he wanted the limelight of clubs rather then the drudgery of a more conventional 9-5 job appears to have been forgotten in the emotive outcry.
The fact that cars are still free to pollute the atmosphere - and if you look at the air quality for areas such as the gyratory in Brighton for instance and the high incidence of respiratory problems among people that live around there you will have to concede that it their air pollution is not confined to enclosed public spaces - look at the misery and cumulative long term detrimental health effect on those subjected to noise pollution, look at the detrimental effects alcohol consumption has on the long term health and well being of individuals within our society ...
There are lots of ways in which the free choice of one individual impacts negatively on the life, health and wellbeing of other individuals.
The fact is that smokers are a soft target making it possible for the government to claim that it is concerned with the health and wellbeing of our compatriots when in actual fact it is really interested in gaining maximum control over peoples' lives with minimum investment. Accept this type of mass control and before you know it you will be more pliable when the next instance comes up.
Right so if you want a career as a Cocktail Barman, Waitress/Waiter, Musican, Cabaret Perfomer, Striper in Mim's world you are expected to risk death by lung cancer.
I guess all those people exposed to asbestos did so out of their own choice as well. |
http://www.moon23.wordpress.com
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5229 Posts |
Posted - 17/05/2007 : 10:40:10
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quote:
Originally posted by moon23
Right so if you want a career as a Cocktail Barman, Waitress/Waiter, Musican, Cabaret Perfomer, Striper in Mim's world you are expected to risk death by lung cancer.
I guess all those people exposed to asbestos did so out of their own choice as well.
If you want to play with fire, you know you are at risk of being burned. If you want to take up a career as a formula 1 driver you know that you stand the risk of ending up smashed to bits in a heap of crumbled metal. If you suffer from vertigo it is no good applying to work on a high rise building site. It isn't Mim's world so much, it is plain common sense ... I don't want to get a suntan, I don't sit in the sun!
And as for your utterly ludicrous attempt re asbestos ... When we first discovered asbestos we did not know all the dangers inherent in exposure. Now we do ... People will now chose to work in the removal of asbestos or not. If they do, they know the potential dangers.
As for the dangers inherent in tobacco consumption ... Back in 1604 King James I famously published his treatise,
'A Counterblast to Tobacco'. In it he described the plant as 'an invention of Satan' and banned tobacco from London's alehouses.
Later, admittedly he had a change of heart and 'nationalised' the burgeoning tobacco industry in England even reducing tobacco taxes.
The fact is that we know about smoky environments, we makes our choice and deal with it. That is the responsible, accountable self reliant adult way. Anything else is nanny-ism. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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moon23
Calaspia
649 Posts |
Posted - 17/05/2007 : 10:46:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
quote:
Originally posted by moon23
Right so if you want a career as a Cocktail Barman, Waitress/Waiter, Musican, Cabaret Perfomer, Striper in Mim's world you are expected to risk death by lung cancer.
I guess all those people exposed to asbestos did so out of their own choice as well.
If you want to play with fire, you know you are at risk of being burned. If you want to take up a career as a formula 1 driver you know that you stand the risk of ending up smashed to bits in a heap of crumbled metal. If you suffer from vertigo it is no good applying to work on a high rise building site. It isn't Mim's world so much, it is plain common sense ... I don't want to get a suntan, I don't sit in the sun!
And as for your utterly ludicrous attempt re asbestos ... When we first discovered asbestos we did not know all the dangers inherent in exposure. Now we do ... People will now chose to work in the removal of asbestos or not. If they do, they know the potential dangers.
As for the dangers inherent in tobacco consumption ... Back in 1604 King James I famously published his treatise,
'A Counterblast to Tobacco'. In it he described the plant as 'an invention of Satan' and banned tobacco from London's alehouses.
Later, admittedly he had a change of heart and 'nationalised' the burgeoning tobacco industry in England even reducing tobacco taxes.
The fact is that we know about smoky environments, we makes our choice and deal with it. That is the responsible, accountable self reliant adult way. Anything else is nanny-ism.
Mim many of the people who worked in Bars & Clubs did not know at the time how dangerous tabacco smoke was.
Now that we know the dangers it isn't right to allow people to go on working in these environments. There is of course risk in all areas of life but if we can do something that reasonble minimises this risk then we should do.
You try telling family memebers of victims of passive smoking that it was 'their choice'. It's a crass an thoughless attitude you have to people dying as a result of trying to earn a living in a career such as musican they enjoy.
We don't need the smoke and thankfully as of the 1st people will be able to enjoy their chosen carrer without having to endure it. |
http://www.moon23.wordpress.com
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5229 Posts |
Posted - 17/05/2007 : 10:54:28
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quote:
Originally posted by moon23
You try telling family memebers of victims of passive smoking that it was 'their choice'. It's a crass an thoughless attitude you have to people dying as a result of trying to earn a living in a career such as musican they enjoy.
We don't need the smoke and thankfully as of the 1st people will be able to enjoy their chosen carrer without having to endure it.
And there you have it peeps, the whole anti-smoking lobby argument in a nutshell ... If you are against us you must agree with people dying of cancer.
Whoopee ... that is not debate Moon, it isn't even an argument. It is pure hyperbolic emotive blackmail! |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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moon23
Calaspia
649 Posts |
Posted - 17/05/2007 : 11:16:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
quote:
Originally posted by moon23
You try telling family memebers of victims of passive smoking that it was 'their choice'. It's a crass an thoughless attitude you have to people dying as a result of trying to earn a living in a career such as musican they enjoy.
We don't need the smoke and thankfully as of the 1st people will be able to enjoy their chosen carrer without having to endure it.
And there you have it peeps, the whole anti-smoking lobby argument in a nutshell ... If you are against us you must agree with people dying of cancer.
Whoopee ... that is not debate Moon, it isn't even an argument. It is pure hyperbolic emotive blackmail!
Fact is Mim, people's lives will be saved from this smoking ban. I know it's emotive, but you can't just dismiss this by claiming it's blackmail.
The "your just trying to guilt trip me over the people killed by passive smoking" response sounds much like a teenage trying to dodge the rammifications of their position to me.
Basically you are attaching a higher price to the right of a smoker to smoke then the right of a worker to do their job in an environment that isn't dangerous.
Fine if that's your position, but at some point along the hyperthetical scale their must be a point where the rights of someone to act must be limited by the rights of another to be free from their actions. If you were a true Anarchist or Ultra neo-liberal then you might well agree that there should be no-state whatsoever. I don't think you are in this ideological camp judging by your previous posts. |
http://www.moon23.wordpress.com
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5229 Posts |
Posted - 17/05/2007 : 11:29:53
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Nope Moon,. I am not attaching any price to anything. I suppose that what it comes down to is how much I value the right of individuals to be self accountable, mature and responsible ... I value the right for each and everyone to make their choice and then accept the consequences that come as a result. And that means all the consequences both the good, the bad and the ugly. I value the right of every individual to weigh up the pros and cons and make a decision based on their perception of worth.
Many people see this as a pro or anti smoking. I see this as another layer of cottonwool to stand between me and reality. A smokescreen - no pun intended - if you like between life as it is and life in a sterile test tube. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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moon23
Calaspia
649 Posts |
Posted - 17/05/2007 : 11:47:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
Nope Moon,. I am not attaching any price to anything. I suppose that what it comes down to is how much I value the right of individuals to be self accountable, mature and responsible ... I value the right for each and everyone to make their choice and then accept the consequences that come as a result. And that means all the consequences both the good, the bad and the ugly. I value the right of every individual to weigh up the pros and cons and make a decision based on their perception of worth.
Many people see this as a pro or anti smoking. I see this as another layer of cottonwool to stand between me and reality. A smokescreen - no pun intended - if you like between life as it is and life in a sterile test tube.
So mim If I was to sit in the pub setting fire to plastic cigarette wrapers and allowing the toxic fumes to drift to where you were enjoying a nice pint would this be accetable?
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http://www.moon23.wordpress.com
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nightbird
Calaspia
603 Posts |
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The Duke of Uranus
Barsoom
293 Posts |
Posted - 17/05/2007 : 12:04:40
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quote:
So mim If I was to sit in the pub setting fire to plastic cigarette wrapers and allowing the toxic fumes to drift to where you were enjoying a nice pint would this be accetable?
Well, you've got to admit, the fumes from that are likely to be far less toxic than BO and a hint of patchouli 
Personally i'd wait to see if the landlord ejected you, if he didn't i'd leave. It's all about CHOICE you see.
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No Expert
Barsoom
390 Posts |
Posted - 17/05/2007 : 12:12:20
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Roy castle didn't mind getting ill. He always seemed quite chirpy when he sang "Medication's what you need"
*hears the entire forum groan* |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5229 Posts |
Posted - 17/05/2007 : 12:20:15
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quote:
Originally posted by moon23
So mim If I was to sit in the pub setting fire to plastic cigarette wrapers and allowing the toxic fumes to drift to where you were enjoying a nice pint would this be accetable?
That would depend entirely on what you view as acceptable. For me, I would decide at that time whether I enjoyed my pint enough to stay there or not.
Having said that Moon, I'm the wrong person to ask that question ... I never drink a pint ... not even milk! |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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moon23
Calaspia
649 Posts |
Posted - 17/05/2007 : 12:45:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
quote:
Originally posted by moon23
So mim If I was to sit in the pub setting fire to plastic cigarette wrapers and allowing the toxic fumes to drift to where you were enjoying a nice pint would this be accetable?
That would depend entirely on what you view as acceptable. For me, I would decide at that time whether I enjoyed my pint enough to stay there or not.
Having said that Moon, I'm the wrong person to ask that question ... I never drink a pint ... not even milk!
So in mim's world people are allowed to do what ever they want in public including releasing plastic fumes in the pub.
So it's down to everyone else to down their drinks accept the situation and remove themselves from the pub.
So is the smoking ban on public transport justified becuase people can't leave the bus easily? |
http://www.moon23.wordpress.com
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5229 Posts |
Posted - 17/05/2007 : 12:52:19
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quote:
Originally posted by moon23
So in mim's world people are allowed to do what ever they want in public including releasing plastic fumes in the pub.
So it's down to everyone else to down their drinks accept the situation and remove themselves from the pub.
So is the smoking ban on public transport justified becuase people can't leave the bus easily?
No Moon, in Mims' world as you so quaintly put it I would hope that people are allowed to make their own choices based on their own evaluation of risk/reward. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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The Duke of Uranus
Barsoom
293 Posts |
Posted - 17/05/2007 : 12:53:23
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quote:
So is the smoking ban on public transport justified becuase people can't leave the bus easily?
No, the smoking ban on public transport is justified because a lot of people have no CHOICE whether they use public transport or not. |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5229 Posts |
Posted - 17/05/2007 : 13:00:19
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| Agreed Duke ... |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Topic |
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Smoking Ban