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FunnyBones
Barsoom
Australia
144 Posts |
 Posted - 26/01/2009 : 04:24:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
Israel vows to back soldiers accused of war crimes
Which is all very well however I sincerely hope that this is only going to be in connection with any charges laid where officers are involved in civilian casualties where Hamas militants caused the civilian casualties by staging attacks from residential areas.
I sincerely hope this is not a carte blanche where an officer is going to be defended regardless.
There is zero chance that anyone in Israel will end up in a court in the Hague. Whether politician or IDF.
NL |
NL
It never pays a prophet to be too specific.
L Sprague de Camp |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 26/01/2009 : 07:01:55
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quote:
Originally posted by FunnyBones
There is zero chance that anyone in Israel will end up in a court in the Hague. Whether politician or IDF.
NL
Aside from the fact that the Hague's term is coming to an end you mean?
Where militants repeatedly hide behind the skirts of women and children the crime belongs rightly to those who use those women and children as a shield. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Tombstone Blues
Earthsea
2295 Posts |
Posted - 26/01/2009 : 11:17:03
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quote:
Originally posted by FunnyBones
Yes Dear.
The BNP and the vast majority of the zillions of political parties in Israel do have one important thing in common. Namely a people like us (or no people not like us) immigration policy. And whilst I suspect Griffin is rather disingenous in his support for Israel there is some irony in these events. Liberal jews have long NOT supported a "people like us" immigration policy in the West (but the opposite for Israel).
Now that a truly anti-semitic monster is beginning to rear its ugly head, courtesy of past immigration policies, we are seeing the creation of some strange bedfellows.
The trouble is that much of the electorate in the west won't be too pleased to find out just how much their own demographics have been white anted by Zionist and other jewish interests over the last 50 to 100 years. Combined with the slaughter in Gaza, these descendants of those who actually fought the Nazis (US, UK, Canada etc etc) may just say "FU".
Kevin MacDonald (a branded anti-semite as opposed to a real, life threatening one) has covered this peculiar double standard to immigration at great length.
http://www.vdare.com/macdonald/070131_mideast.htm
http://www.kevinmacdonald.net/Immigration.pdf
NL
Ahhh . . .good ol' Eric Olthwaite . . . .dependable as ever. |
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FunnyBones
Barsoom
Australia
144 Posts |
Posted - 26/01/2009 : 12:48:48
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| Is that the best you can come up with? Well yes it is I guess. But don't read Macdonald, and never debate him. He would tie you up in circles. Better stay here. You're safe. |
NL
It never pays a prophet to be too specific.
L Sprague de Camp |
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FunnyBones
Barsoom
Australia
144 Posts |
Posted - 26/01/2009 : 13:06:03
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And another thing. Cindy Sheehan had the temerity to suggest her son died to fight a war that Israel wanted. Silly Cindy. What would she know?
Well some people actually do the research while other, some here, are and were limited to sneering.
"Not a few honest political analysts have long recognized the tight relationship between the Israel-U.S. partnership and the disastrous Bush administration adventures throughout the Middle East, including its backing for Israel’s systematic oppression of the Palestinians. Stephen Sniegoski has had the persistence to ferret out mountains of impossible-to-challenge evidence that this Israel-U.S. connection is the driving force behind virtually all Middle East decisionmaking over the last eight years, as well as the political courage to write a book about it........."
The research is a long read:
http://www.counterpunch.org/christison09202008.html
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NL
It never pays a prophet to be too specific.
L Sprague de Camp |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 26/01/2009 : 15:05:12
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| Cindy? Limited by grief stricken eyes and the need to blame someone ... |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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FunnyBones
Barsoom
Australia
144 Posts |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 26/01/2009 : 22:07:03
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| Is it? Or is it merely that you want it to be? How come we do not hear anyone bleating about the support that Hamas has had from various states? Oh, of course, silly me, that would not sit well with the concept of underdog would it. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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sweeny todd
Barsoom
United Kingdom
249 Posts |
Posted - 26/01/2009 : 22:28:22
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| hypotheticaly i wonder wwhat we would do in israels position, if the scots or the welsh tried to commit acts of terror against england!would we sit on our backsides for years and let them fire rockets into our cities or would we try and route out the terrorists ,i know that this is a wierd analagy and maybe a stupid one ,but i have tried to put myself in an israelies position and think i would choose the latter!! |
only borrow from a pessimist |
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FunnyBones
Barsoom
Australia
144 Posts |
Posted - 26/01/2009 : 22:28:39
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Well I might "want it to be". Doesn't make the book change. Perhaps you might find it harder to dissect than soft targets at this forum. Perhaps too hard to bother with it.
But we are sinking into the personal. Why? Doesn't give me any glee.
"It is furthermore astonishing how this book has elicited such vitriol on Amazon, causing one AIPAC defender, who also admires the “wisdom” and “patriotism” of our neoconservative ruling class, to compare Steve to the Nazis."
http://www.takimag.com/blogs/article/the_transparent_cabal/ |
NL
It never pays a prophet to be too specific.
L Sprague de Camp |
Edited by - FunnyBones on 26/01/2009 22:30:12 |
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FunnyBones
Barsoom
Australia
144 Posts |
Posted - 26/01/2009 : 22:38:39
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quote:
Originally posted by sweeny todd
hypotheticaly i wonder wwhat we would do in israels position, if the scots or the welsh tried to commit acts of terror against england!would we sit on our backsides for years and let them fire rockets into our cities or would we try and route out the terrorists ,i know that this is a wierd analagy and maybe a stupid one ,but i have tried to put myself in an israelies position and think i would choose the latter!!
Not a bad hypothetical. Trouble is, the IRA bombings in the 70s and 80s (and 90s) make it less hypothetical. My bet is if the English had done to the Catholics Irish in Londonderry, Belfast etc what has been inflicted upon the Palestinians (no right of return etc etc), then the "troubles" would be bigger than ever.
Can't ever remember a response like the one in Gaza.
Anyone think they should have taken their cue from Israel? |
NL
It never pays a prophet to be too specific.
L Sprague de Camp |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 26/01/2009 : 22:42:15
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No NL, I've been on that wonderful merry-go-round with you a number of times. I'm getting far too long in the tooth to play games.
As for comparing specific individuals to Nazis ... well, it is a sign of the times and the paucity of vocabulary by some. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Anubis
Calaspia
718 Posts |
Posted - 26/01/2009 : 23:19:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
quote:
Originally posted by FunnyBones
There is zero chance that anyone in Israel will end up in a court in the Hague. Whether politician or IDF.
NL
Where militants repeatedly hide behind the skirts of women and children the crime belongs rightly to those who use those women and children as a shield.
We've been here before -- the same old crap -- yes, you've got to admire those geezers sitting in their planes and dropping their rockets and phosphorous and cluster bombs on the women and kids below -- that's real heroism. Why don't the Palestinians do the same? Tell us, Mim, you've lived there .... is it like it was over here during the war; having dropped their rockets from the skies above, do those brave Israeli pilots return to base, chat up the barmaids and order their whiskies on the rocks between casting their darts at the dartboard. Do they say "Bung ho old chap" as they gulp it down? [Tell us, what's the Hebrew for "Bung ho old chap"?] |
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sweeny todd
Barsoom
United Kingdom
249 Posts |
Posted - 26/01/2009 : 23:22:29
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| i did say it was a bit of a daft analagy but can you just imagine how we would feel if we had rockets raining down on us hamas is evil and no sort of ceace fire will ever make them keep to any form of peace there so called jihad wont let them i think ive said before indoctrination has ruined there minds (evil is as evil does) but i dont think the koran preaches violence in any form ,and if it does ! in my mind it cannot be a holy book as i thought it was!! |
only borrow from a pessimist |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 26/01/2009 : 23:25:14
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Last time I was there during a war was in 1973 and I do not recall any 'Bung ho old chap' either in Hebrew or any other language for that matter. Nor do I recall seeing dartboards, barmaids or whiskey on the rocks being available between tours.
Anymore vacuous questions Anubis? |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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n/a
deleted
1567 Posts |
Posted - 26/01/2009 : 23:29:00
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| Sweeny I wil give you a copy of the quran there is no-where that I have read where it advocates violence quite the reverse actually,Hamas was/is a breakaway faction of yasser Arafats plo if memory serves me well;any one no matter who that hides behind children or the infirm are cowards.and I am sorry but every war has the innocents fall victim to the ravages. Anubis seems to enjoy baiting |
keep on smiling |
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sweeny todd
Barsoom
United Kingdom
249 Posts |
Posted - 26/01/2009 : 23:37:37
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| it does seem to be getting a wee bit personal del! but the thing is in my view to stand by and do nothing makes an innocent man guilty , therefor israel had to reply to acts of terror the fact that innocents die in this process is truly terrible but whats the alternative where the devil rides horror will always ensue!! |
only borrow from a pessimist |
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camelot
Barsoom
USA
481 Posts |
Posted - 26/01/2009 : 23:57:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
Last time I was there during a war was in 1973 and I do not recall any 'Bung ho old chap' either in Hebrew or any other language for that matter. Nor do I recall seeing dartboards, barmaids or whiskey on the rocks being available between tours.
That's the problem in my mind...Israel today is not the Israel of 1973. Destroying a school or other public place because the bad guys are hiding "under the skirts" is not acceptable behavior. We invaded Iraq because of "The Mass Murderer Saddam" (after the WMD's were not found this was the major justification) Is there a difference? Hundreds (thousands?) appear to have been slaughtered with no way to defend themselves, run away, or surrender. UN Designated areas have been attacked and reporters banned in what seems more like an effort to suppress news reporting by independent observers than battlefield “mistakes”. Leads one to wonder why the Israelis need darkness for what they are doing… This was an act without honor, and perhaps a slap in the face of the Israeli people of 1973. |
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sweeny todd
Barsoom
United Kingdom
249 Posts |
Posted - 27/01/2009 : 00:08:29
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| i dont think there is anything covert in what is going on at this juncture it would be very hard to keep it in the dark!! |
only borrow from a pessimist |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 27/01/2009 : 00:22:40
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Agreeable? No, I'll grant you Camelot but acceptable ... when it is the habitual stance of a militant faction there is very little that you can do about it - except for of course standing back and letting your civilian population remain targets for rocket attacks.
Please do not misunderstand me, I am as horrified by the death of an innocent now as ever I was. I am however not going to let sentimentality sway me now anymore then I let it sway me when I deride Israel for her actions. Remember the furore there was about the high number of civilian fatalities in Lebanon as opposed to the Israeli civilian fatalities? One of the prime reasons was that the Israeli government has provided shelters for her civilian population whereas Lebanon was, seemingly, content to let the civilian populace fend for itself. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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FunnyBones
Barsoom
Australia
144 Posts |
Posted - 27/01/2009 : 01:10:08
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quote:
Originally posted by sweeny todd
i did say it was a bit of a daft analagy but can you just imagine how we would feel if we had rockets raining down on us hamas is evil and no sort of ceace fire will ever make them keep to any form of peace there so called jihad wont let them i think ive said before indoctrination has ruined there minds (evil is as evil does) but i dont think the koran preaches violence in any form ,and if it does ! in my mind it cannot be a holy book as i thought it was!!
Why just imagine you are on that side of the border? Have you imagined for a second how you would feel if you were on the other side of the border for the last 60 odd years. Let bygones be bygones? Kiss your family homes (of hundreds of years) goodbye?
Your imagination seems stuck on one side only. |
NL
It never pays a prophet to be too specific.
L Sprague de Camp |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 27/01/2009 : 04:45:35
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quote:
Originally posted by FunnyBones
Why just imagine you are on that side of the border? Have you imagined for a second how you would feel if you were on the other side of the border for the last 60 odd years. Let bygones be bygones? Kiss your family homes (of hundreds of years) goodbye?
Your imagination seems stuck on one side only.
And your view of reality is rather partisan to say the least. All the quotes below are from Arab/Muslim sources.quote:
The Arab armies entered Palestine …. they abandoned them, forced them to emigrate and to leave their homeland...The Arab States succeeded in scattering the Palestinian people.
By Abu Mazen, in an article entitled "Madha `Alamna wa-Madha Yajib An Na`mal", published in "Falastin eth-Thawra", the official journal of the PLO, Beirut, March 1976
quote:
The call by the Arab Governments to the inhabitants of Palestine to evacuate it and to leave for the bordering Arab countries, after having sown terror among them...
Since 1948 we have been demanding the return of the refugees to their homes. But we ourselves are the ones who encouraged them to leave...We have brought destruction upon a million Arab refugees, by calling upon them and pleading with them to leave their land, their homes, their work and business...
By Khaled al-`Azm (who served as Prime Minister of Syria in 1948 and 1949) in his memoirs published in Beirut, 1973 (Part 1, pp. 386-387)
He also said:
quote:
Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of refugees… while it is we who made them to leave… We brought disaster upon… Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave… We have rendered them dispossessed…
We have accustomed them to begging… We have participated in lowering their moral and social level… Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon… men, women and children - all this in service of political purposes…
quote:
Who brought the Palestinians to Lebanon as refugees, suffering now from the malign attitude of newspapers and communal leaders, who have neither honor nor conscience? Who brought them over in dire straits and penniless, after they lost their honor? The Arab states, and Lebanon amongst them, did it.
The Beirut Muslim weekly Kul-Shay, Aug. 19, 1951.
quote:
The 15th May, 1948, arrived ... On that day the mufti of Jerusalem appealed to the Arabs of Palestine to leave the country, because the Arab armies were about to enter and fight in their stead."
The Cairo daily Akhbar el Yom, Oct. 12, 1963.
quote:
For the flight and fall of the other villages it is our leaders who are responsible because of their dissemination of rumors exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the Arabs ... By spreading rumors of Jewish atrocities, killings of women and children etc., they instilled fear and terror in the hearts of the Arabs in Palestine, until they fled leaving their homes and properties to the enemy.
The Jordanian daily newspaper Al Urdun, April 9, 1953.
quote:
The fact that there are these refugees is the direct consequence
of the act of the Arab states in opposing partition and the Jewish
state. The Arab states agreed upon this policy unanimously and they
must share in the solution of the problem.
Emile Ghoury, secretary of the Palestinian Arab Higher Committee, in an interview with the Beirut Telegraph September 6, 1948. (same appeared in The London Telegraph, August 1948)
quote:
The Arab states which had encouraged the Palestine Arabs to
leave their homes temporarily in order to be out of the way of the Arab invasion armies, have failed to keep their promise to help these refugees.
The Jordanian daily newspaper Falastin, February 19, 1949.
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The Secretary General of the Arab League, Azzam Pasha,assured the Arab peoples that the occupation of Palestine and of Tel Aviv would be as simple as a military promenade...Brotherly advice was given to the Arabs of Palestine to leave their land, homes, and property to stay temporarily in neighboring fraternal states, lest the guns of invading Arab armies mow them down.
Al Hoda, a New York-based Lebanese daily, June 8, 1951
quote:
Who brought the Palestinians to Lebanon as refugees, suffering now from the malign attitude of newspapers and communal leaders, who have neither honour nor conscience? Who brought them over in dire straits and penniless, after they lost their honour? The Arab states, and Lebanon amongst them, did it
The Beirut Muslim weekly Kul-Shay, August 19, 1951.
quote:
We will smash the country with our guns and obliterate every place the Jews seek shelter in. The Arabs should conduct their wives and children to safe areas until the fighting has died down
Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri Said, quoted in Sir An-Nakbah “The Secret Behind the Disaster” by Nimr el-Hawari, Nazareth, 1952
quote:
The Arab Exodus …was not caused by the actual battle, but by the exaggerated description spread by the Arab leaders to incite them to fight the Jews. …For the flight and fall of the other villages it is our leaders who are responsible because of their dissemination of
rumors exaggerating Jewish crimes and describing them as atrocities in order to inflame the Arabs ... By spreading rumors of Jewish atrocities,killings of women and children etc., they instilled fear and terror in the hearts of the Arabs in Palestine, until they fled leaving their homes and properties to the enemy.
The Jordanian daily newspaper Al Urdun, April 9, 1953.
quote:
The Arab governments told us: Get out so that we can get in.
So we got out, but they did not get in.”
A refugee quoted in Al Difaa (Jordan) September 6, 1954.
quote:
The 15th May, 1948, arrived ... On that day the mufti of Jerusalem appealed to the Arabs of Palestine to leave the country,because the Arab armies were about to enter and fight in their stead
The Cairo daily Akhbar el Yom, October 12, 1963.
quote:
In listing the reasons for the Arab failure in 1948, Khaled al-Azm (Syrian ex-Prime Minister) notes that “…the fifth factor was the call by the Arab governments to the inhabitants of Palestine to evacuate it (Palestine) and leave for the bordering Arab countries. Since 1948, it is we who have demanded the return of the refugees, while it is we who made them leave. We brought disaster upon a million Arab refugees by inviting them and bringing pressure on them to leave. We have accustomed them to begging...we have participated in lowering their morale and social level...Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson and throwing stones upon men, women and children...all this in the service of political purposes...
Khaled el-Azm, Syrian prime minister after the 1948 War, in his 1972 memoirs, published in 1973.
quote:
Since 1948, the Arab leaders have approached the Palestinian
problem in an irresponsible manner. They have used to Palestinian
people for political purposes; this is ridiculous, I might even say criminal...
King Hussein, Hashemite kingdom of Jordan, 1996.
Far be it from me to hold that Israel has no part to play in the position of latter day Palestinians; neither will I nor have I ever claimed that Israel has always been blameless. However to carry on as if it is entirely the fault of Israel and the Jews, as you appear to be intimating with every post on the subject, is to be either extremely naive and a wholesale consumer of highly biased and partisan propoganda or, alternatively, to have an agenda which you believe to be served by such narrow-minded partiality. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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camelot
Barsoom
USA
481 Posts |
Posted - 27/01/2009 : 05:11:27
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| I say let us have an "agenda" that accomplishes the objective of peace. For all concerned. I can understand the need to eliminate rocket fire into Israel, but I am not sure how leveling civilian infrastructure and killing people who have nothing to do with rockets (and cannot just leave due to locked borders) will accomplish this aim. It reeks of mass punishment much like the thug who harms your family members because you owe money. Very much like the German SS in the old movies...round up a hundred villagers and shoot them if the 'resistance" isn't turned in. |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 27/01/2009 : 05:32:29
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| I agree Camelot however I do not think that that objective is going to be within reach if we close our eyes to facts. And those facts, unsavoury as they may be to some, are that partisan support for either one side, or the other for that matter, is not going to get us one step closer to that objective. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Anubis
Calaspia
718 Posts |
Posted - 27/01/2009 : 09:46:25
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quote:
Originally posted by thedelboy
Sweeny I wil give you a copy of the quran there is no-where that I have read where it advocates violence quite the reverse actually,Hamas was/is a breakaway faction of yasser Arafats plo if memory serves me well;any one no matter who that hides behind children or the infirm are cowards.and I am sorry but every war has the innocents fall victim to the ravages. Anubis seems to enjoy baiting
A few verses from the Quram for you, Delboy:
[I am NOT trying to make an issue out of this, Delboy. The overwhelming majority of Muslims don't believe this nonsense, any more than the overwhelming majority of Jews and Christians believe similar garbage found in the Hebrew and Greek scriptures!] |
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BLONDIE
Barsoom
491 Posts |
Posted - 27/01/2009 : 12:09:50
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Why is it that I can find nothing - not even the briefest couple of words - re Rahm Emanuel's stint in the Israeli Army in 1991? Seems like the "whitewash brush" is still in force in the White House.
What was it Mr. Obama said about everything being in the open ! |
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FunnyBones
Barsoom
Australia
144 Posts |
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Tombstone Blues
Earthsea
2295 Posts |
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n/a
deleted
1567 Posts |
Posted - 27/01/2009 : 17:22:54
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| very interesting |
keep on smiling |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 27/01/2009 : 18:43:40
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| early on in his campaign Obama stated that he wasn't necessarily pro-Israel. I remember it well and it was one of the things that attracted me to him as a candidate. Good to see that he is carrying non-partisanship through. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Topic |
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Israel, Palestine, et al ...