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FunnyBones
Barsoom
Australia
144 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 14:44:42
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| Nope. I can just imagine your outrage and disappointment. Now that you have found out about it (unless I missed something). |
NL
It never pays a prophet to be too specific.
L Sprague de Camp |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
 Posted - 07/08/2008 : 14:48:26
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quote:
Originally posted by FunnyBones
Nope. I can just imagine your outrage and disappointment. Now that you have found out about it (unless I missed something).
Care to explain ... Remember the rules |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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FunnyBones
Barsoom
Australia
144 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 14:48:29
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Nope. Are you outraged and disappointed or had you already mentioned it below?
You are refusing to follow rules and therefore will be locked out for a period of two days. You may then resume posting
livewire (Admin) |
NL
It never pays a prophet to be too specific.
L Sprague de Camp |
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Tombstone Blues
Earthsea
2295 Posts |
Posted - 07/08/2008 : 16:23:00
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Isreal's immigration policy!
Ahhh . . .our very own Eric Olthwaite . . .
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Daveb
Earthsea
2823 Posts |
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camelot
Barsoom
USA
481 Posts |
Posted - 28/12/2008 : 05:22:09
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It's sad really, that this many people have to die for a burning commitment to revenge. A poster on the old Argus board opened my eyes a bit when he/she pointed out that the only difference between a suicide bomb attack in Israel and an Israeli missile strike in a populated area of Palestine was the delivery system. The results were the same
dead innocents. BorninHove put up a valiant defense in that case but the fact remains when the collateral damage is as severe as it seems here, blood lust is the only explanation.
And worst of all, the ones that want to continue to launch terror on Israel's border cities will continue...with renewed zeal. The ignorant fools. |
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BLONDIE
Barsoom
491 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2009 : 12:43:01
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Regarding the present situation, I am reminded that many many years ago in the early forties when Hitler invaded Europe. A small group of people "The Resistance", endeavoured to make life as difficult as possible for the Germans with terrible results. A German soldier was killed and all the men in the local village were lined up and shot. The terrible death toll of Lidice where the whole village was completely destroyed. There are too mny instances called reprisals to repeat here. I note a distinct similarity between the Israelis and Hammas together with the Palestinian people. The oppressors and the oppressed. For too long Israel has cocked a snoot at the Western World due to the backing of the US administration which in the present circumstances is the only country still 100% behind Israel. Frankly I hope that "God's Chosen People" ????? get a bloody nose with their present invasion of Gaza. Whilst I am against
violence I think that one must take a long hard look at the underlying causes of the present situation that began many years ago. Wasn't it the Israelis who initially began hostilities by bombing the King David Hotel all those years ago? Or even further back in time when according to legend they wandered about the Middle East?
I note with interest that the "Faceless Wonders" are out with their red pencil again. Seems they have it in for poor old Funnybones. Can't understand why......Cen......Whoops! |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2009 : 12:54:04
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Oh dear Blondie, as usual way behind the times. Never mind dear.
As for the current situation in Israel and Gaza. While I have always held that Israel should abstain from 'pre-emptive' actions what is going on at the moment is a struggle for power within Israel itself. On the one hand you have the old guard who are still motivated by and large by the old post WWII spirit (BTW the Kind David Hotel was Palestinians - Jewish Palestinians I'll grant you but Palestinians nontheless) and the new guard a'la Tzipi Livne. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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BLONDIE
Barsoom
491 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2009 : 13:28:23
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Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit and no way am I behind the times. I am well aware of the political machinations within the Knesset. You obviously don't understand the full meaning of my comments. But never mind.
Read, mark, learn and inwardly digest. |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2009 : 13:47:40
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quote:
Originally posted by BLONDIE
Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit and no way am I behind the times. I am well aware of the political machinations within the Knesset. You obviously don't understand the full meaning of my comments. But never mind.
Read, mark, learn and inwardly digest.
Read, mark and inwardly digest is something you would do well to take note of yourself Blondie. The comment regarding being behind the times was in reference to your remark re FunnyBones. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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camelot
Barsoom
USA
481 Posts |
Posted - 05/01/2009 : 23:43:36
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It is the carnage that I hate, as well as the frustration of watching it go on and on. In this case I can understand the motivation for stopping the missle launch crowd. A co-worker handed me this today from the local news paper...there is an element of truth to it.
Today's chuckle
One little-known aspect of the current crisis in Gaza is that, just before starting their attack, Israel annexed the strip of land, officially designating Gaza as part of its own country and unilaterally converting its occupants to Judaism.
"We figured," explained the minister responsible for the change, "if it were Israel we were shooting missiles at, and Jews who were dying, then nobody would care."
http://www.suntimes.com/news/steinberg/1361687,CST-NWS-stein05.article |
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BLONDIE
Barsoom
491 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2009 : 12:24:03
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| Food for thought Camelot, but common sense seems to have gone by the board. Hammas is not going to stop its firing of rockets and in consequence Israel is going to continue its onslaught. It's a case of the oppressed and the oppressor, and as was the case way back in the forties neither side would back down. Only the intervention of a much larger force stopped the war. However the Jews had a good teacher in the Nazi regime. Carry on and ignore the rest of the World. |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 06/01/2009 : 13:03:40
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| Not quite as simple as all that Blondie. The main struggle in Israel itself is now between the ex-mandate generation and the Israel generation. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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camelot
Barsoom
USA
481 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2009 : 04:47:02
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OK , here's the problem I now have with Israel. The people who fire missles into Israel are criminals. By any ethical standard I can think of. Firing missles or guns at a civilian population without any reason other than killing that civilian population is mass murder. So sign me up for the Israeli defense team. Then this happens...
GAZA CITY, Gaza France and Egypt announced an initiative to stop the fighting in Gaza late Tuesday, hours after Israeli mortar shells exploded near* a U.N. school sheltering hundreds of people displaced by the onslaught on Hamas militants. At least 30 Palestinians died, staining streets with blood.
*within inches according to some reports
If a group of criminals ran into a student occupied school in Brighton/Hove and fired at police from within the school building, would it be OK to level the building with explosives? There ARE war crimes here if any of this is true...
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_israel_palestinians
PS The watered down reporting of this event makes me think that one tin foil hat poster on this forum may be correct about the media... |
Edited by - camelot on 07/01/2009 04:54:57 |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2009 : 08:51:13
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The whole concept of a 'humanitarian corridor' is absurd. As I have stated before on any number of occasions, Israel should not, under any circumstances, act preemptively. What we have here is an internal power struggle between two totally different generations of Israeli politicians coupled with a change of power in the good ol' USA. Add to that the nature of Hamas and its primary 'California or bust' mentality and the circumstances are ripe for 'war crimes'.
The ground offensive that Israel started in the beginning of the second week of its war against the Palestinian people in Gaza was expected and, once the air operation had begun, to some extent wanted by both Israel and Hamas.
Both in Israel and Palestine a general election is shortly to be held. While the holding of Palestinian elections is always, like the distribution of water, food, medicines and fuel, highly uncertain, the mandate of the President in office of the Palestinian National Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, expires on 9 January.
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"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
Edited by - Miriam Binder on 07/01/2009 09:14:50 |
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BLONDIE
Barsoom
491 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2009 : 12:25:26
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| Krystalnaght................2009 version ! |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2009 : 16:34:57
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quote:
Originally posted by BLONDIE
Krystalnaght................2009 version !
Krystal Nacht? Doubt it Blondie ... |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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sweeny todd
Barsoom
United Kingdom
249 Posts |
Posted - 07/01/2009 : 22:16:56
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| i dont think this terrible conflict has anything to do with the state of israel or palestine ,israel is in its self a soveriegn state as is any country taken by the force of arms! im sorry but i think it all comes back to bloody religion and i use the word bloody in what i believe is the correct context for what i see as sensless killing of innocents on both sides when will mankind ever learn the lessons of there own barbaric history?????????????????? |
only borrow from a pessimist |
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BLONDIE
Barsoom
491 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2009 : 02:36:17
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Couldn't agree more Sweeny. There are over 6,000 different religions in the World today and each one believes they are correct one. It's all handed down over generations from Father to Son. I remember that Catholisism was rife in certain police forces in the UK just to name one. The Holy Qur'an and the Holy Bible are, I would suggest, the biggest perpetrators of bloodshed since man appeared on this Earth.
We now await in immediate reply from MB. |
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Anubis
Calaspia
718 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2009 : 08:48:46
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quote:
Originally posted by BLONDIE
Couldn't agree more Sweeny. ....... I would suggest, the biggest perpetrators of bloodshed since man appeared on this Earth.
We now await in immediate reply from MB.
Apologies if I appear before your awaited response from MB ...... BUT I couldn't agree less, Sweeny & BLONDIE.
Would appreciate some clarification of what you say, BLONDIE. Most would agree that the two regimes of the 20th Century causing the greatest mass murders of the century were those of Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin. Which 'religions' were the guilty ones for these two mammoth examples? |
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n/a
deleted
1567 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2009 : 11:41:55
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Anubis Hitler thought he was God |
keep on smiling |
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sweeny todd
Barsoom
United Kingdom
249 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2009 : 11:42:17
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| i was not trying to point the finger of blame at any one religion they are all equaly to blame for bloodshed and genicide worldwide which i in my niavety thought was stamped out when the likes of stalin and hitler , but it still rears its ugly head the other factions to blame of course are age old GREED oil and any other minerals man deems to be of any value ie blood diamonds!!!!! |
only borrow from a pessimist |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2009 : 12:00:38
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| Religion is manmade value system. Ultimately designed to leave power in the hands of those that have it. As such, if it had not been religion it would be some other system that has the same consequences. The real issue is 'otherness' (I don't know if such a word exists, but if it doesn't it should. Otherness = the quality of being perceived as separate and different. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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sweeny todd
Barsoom
United Kingdom
249 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2009 : 12:13:50
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| quite true miriam and i think that if one takes part in it one does so at ones own peril ! humanist would be the way i would like the world to be but thats a forlorn hope i think! |
only borrow from a pessimist |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2009 : 13:04:56
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Israel is now in the 13th day of carrying out Operation Cast Lead against the Palestinian Islamist movement Hamas in the Gaza Strip, where Hamas has been the de facto ruler ever since it seized control of the territory in a June 2007 coup. The Israeli campaign, whose primary military aim is to neutralise Hamas' ability to carry out rocket attacks against Israel, has led to the reported deaths of more than 560 Palestinians; the number of wounded is approaching the 3,000 mark.
The reaction from the Arab world has been mixed. On the one hand, a look at the so-called Arab street will reveal an angry scene of chanting protesters, burning flags and embassy attacks in protest of Israel's actions. The principal Arab regimes, however, have either kept quiet or publicly condemned Hamas for the crisis while privately often expressing their support for Israel's bid to weaken the radical Palestinian group.
Despite the much-hyped Arab nationalist solidarity often cited in the name of Palestine, most Arab regimes actually have little love for the Palestinians. While these countries like keeping the Palestinian issue alive for domestic consumption and as a tool to pressure Israel and the West when the need arises, in actuality, they tend to view Palestinian refugees and more Palestinian radical groups like Hamas as a threat to the stability of their regimes.
One such Arab country is Saudi Arabia. Given its financial power and its shared religious underpinnings with Hamas, Riyadh traditionally has backed the radical Palestinian group. The kingdom backed a variety of Islamist political forces during the 1960s and 1970s in a bid to undercut secular Nasserite Arab nationalist forces, which threatened Saudi Arabia's regional status. But 9/11, which stemmed in part from Saudi support for the Taliban and al Qaeda in Afghanistan, opened Riyadh's eyes to the danger of supporting militant Islamism.
Thus, while Saudi Arabia continued to support many of the same Palestinian groups, it also started whistling a more moderate tune in its domestic and foreign policies. As part of this moderate drive, in 2002 King Abdullah offered Israel a comprehensive peace treaty whereby Arab states would normalise ties with the Jewish state in exchange for an Israeli withdrawal to its 1967 borders. Though Israel rejected the offer, the proposal itself clearly conflicted with Hamas' manifesto, which calls for Israel's destruction. The post-9/11 world also created new problems for one of Hamas' sources of regular funding wealthy Gulf Arabs who grew increasingly wary of turning up on the radars of Western security and intelligence agencies as fund transfers from the Gulf came under closer scrutiny.
Meanwhile, Egypt, which regularly mediates Hamas-Israel and Hamas-Fatah matters, thus far has been the most vocal in its opposition to Hamas during the latest Israeli military offensive. Cairo has even gone as far as blaming Hamas for provoking the conflict. Though Egypt's stance has earned it a number of attacks on its embassies in the Arab world and condemnations in major Arab editorial pages, Cairo has a core strategic interest in ensuring that Hamas remains boxed in. The secular government of Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak is already preparing for a shaky leadership transition, which is bound to be exploited by the country's largest opposition movement, the Muslim Brotherhood (MB).
The MB, from which Hamas emerged, maintains links with the Hamas leadership. Egypt's powerful security apparatus has kept the MB in check, but the Egyptian group has steadily built up support among Egypt's lower and middle classes, which have grown disillusioned with the soaring rate of unemployment and lack of economic prospects in Egypt. The sight of Muslim Brotherhood activists leading protests in Egypt in the name of Hamas is thus quite disconcerting for the Mubarak regime. The Egyptians also are fearful that Gaza could become a haven for Salafist jihadist groups that could collaborate with Egypt's own jihadist node the longer Gaza remains in disarray under Hamas rule.
Of the Arab states, Jordan has the most to lose from a group like Hamas. More than three-fourths of the Hashemite monarchy's people claim Palestinian origins. The kingdom itself is a weak, poor state that historically has relied on the United Kingdom, Israel and the United States for its survival. Among all Arab governments, Amman has had the longest and closest relationship with Israel even before it concluded a formal peace treaty with Israel in 1994. In 1970, Jordan waged war against Fatah when the group posed a threat to the kingdom's security; it also threw out Hamas in 1999 after fears that the group posed a similar threat to the stability of the kingdom. Like Egypt, Jordan also has a vibrant MB, which has closer ties to Hamas than its Egyptian counterpart. As far as Amman is concerned, therefore, the harder Israel hits Hamas, the better.
Finally, Syria is in a more complex position than these other four Arab states. The Alawite-Baathist regime in Syria has long been a pariah in the Arab world because of its support for Shiite Iran and for their mutual militant proxy in Lebanon, Hezbollah. But ever since the 2006 war between Israel and Hezbollah, the Syrians have been charting a different course, looking for ways to break free from diplomatic isolation and to reach some sort of understanding with the Israelis.
For the Syrians, support for Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad and several other radical Palestinian outfits provides tools of leverage to use in negotiating a settlement with Israel. Any deal between the Syrians and the Israelis would thus involve Damascus sacrificing militant proxies such as Hezbollah and Hamas in return for key concessions in Lebanon where Syria's core geopolitical interests lie and in the disputed Golan Heights. While the Israeli-Syrian peace talks remain in flux, Syria's lukewarm reaction to the Israeli offensive and restraint (thus far) from criticising the more moderate Arab regimes' lack of response suggests Damascus may be looking to exploit the Gaza offensive to improve its relations in the Arab world and reinvigorate its talks with Israel. And the more damage Israel does to Hamas now, the easier it will be for Damascus to crack down on Hamas should the need arise.
With Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan and Syria taking into account their own interests when dealing with the Palestinians, ironically, the most reliable patron Sunni Hamas has had in recent years is Iran, the Sunni Arab world's principal Shiite rival. Several key developments have made Hamas' gradual shift toward Iran possible:
- Saudi Arabia's post-9/11 move into the moderate camp previously dominated by Egypt and Jordan, two states that have diplomatic relations with Israel.
- The collapse of Baathist Iraq and the resulting rise of Shiite power in the region.
- The 2004 Iranian parliamentary elections that put Iran's ultraconservatives in power and the 2005 election of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, whose public anti-Israeli views resonated with Hamas at a time when other Arab states had grown more moderate.
- The 2006 Palestinian elections, in which Hamas defeated its secular rival, Fatah, by a landslide. When endowed with the responsibility of running an unrecognised government, Hamas floundered between its goals of dominating the Palestinian political landscape and continuing to call for the destruction of Israel and the creation of an Islamist state. The Arab states, particularly Saudi Arabia and Egypt, had hoped that the electoral victory would lead Hamas to moderate its stance, but Iran encouraged Hamas to adhere to its radical agenda. As the West increasingly isolated the Hamas-led government, the group shifted more toward the Iranian position, which more closely meshed with its original mandate.
- The 2006 summer military confrontation between Hezbollah and Israel, in which Iranian-backed Hezbollah symbolically defeated the Jewish state. Hezbollah's ability to withstand the Israeli military onslaught gave confidence to Hamas that it could emulate the Lebanese Shiite movement which, like Hamas, was both a political party and an armed paramilitary organisation. Similar to their reaction to the current Gaza offensive, the principal Arab states condemned Hezbollah for provoking Israel and grew terrified at the outpouring of support for the Shiite militant group from their own populations. Hezbollah-Hamas collaboration in training, arms-procurement and funding intensified, and almost certainly has played a decisive role in equipping Hamas with 122mm BM-21 Grad artillery rockets and larger Iranian-made 240mm Fajr-3 rockets and potentially even a modest anti-Armour capability.
- The June 2007 Hamas coup against Fatah in the Gaza Strip, which caused a serious strain in relations between Egypt and Hamas. The resulting blockade on Gaza put Egypt in an extremely uncomfortable position, in which it had to crack down on the Gaza border, thus giving the MB an excuse to rally opposition against Cairo. Egypt was already uncomfortable with Hamas' electoral victory, but it could not tolerate the group's emergence as the unchallenged power in Gaza.
- Syria's decision to go public with peace talks with Israel. As soon as it became clear that Syria was getting serious about such negotiations, alarm bells went off within groups like Hamas and Hezbollah, which now had to deal with the fear that Damascus could sell them out at any time as part of a deal with the Israelis.
Hamas' relations with the Arab states already were souring; its warming relationship with Iran has proved the coup de grace. Mubarak said it best when he recently remarked that the situation in the Gaza Strip "has led to Egypt, in practise, having a border with Iran." In other words, Hamas has allowed Iranian influence to come far too close for the Arab states' comfort.
In many ways, the falling-out between Hamas and the Arab regimes is not surprising. The decline of Nasserism in the late 1960s essentially meant the death of Arab nationalism. Even before then, the Arab states put their respective national interests ahead of any devotion to pan-Arab nationalism that would have translated into support for the Palestinian cause. As Islamism gradually came to replace Arab nationalism as a political force throughout the region, the Arab regimes became even more concerned about stability at home, given the very real threat of a religious challenge to their rule. While these states worked to suppress radical Islamist elements that had taken root in their countries, the Arab governments caught wind of Tehran's attempts to adopt the region's radical Islamist trend to create a geopolitical space for Iran in the Arab Middle East. As a result, the Arab-Persian struggle became one of the key drivers that has turned the Arab states against Hamas.
For each of these Arab states, Hamas represents a force that could stir the social pot at home either by creating a backlash against the regimes for their ties to Israel and their perceived failure to aid the Palestinians, or by emboldening democratic Islamist movements in the region that could threaten the stability of both republican regimes and monarchies. With somewhat limited options to contain Iranian expansion in the region, the Arab states ironically are looking to Israel to ensure that Hamas remains boxed in. So, while on the surface it may seem that the entire Arab world is convulsing with anger at Israel's offensive against Hamas, a closer look reveals that the view from the Arab palace is quite different from the view on the Arab street.
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"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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sweeny todd
Barsoom
United Kingdom
249 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2009 : 13:26:41
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| a very interesting read miriam! |
only borrow from a pessimist |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2009 : 13:30:45
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| The Middle East situation is complex and multi-faceted. These are just a few of them. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Anubis
Calaspia
718 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2009 : 13:57:53
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sweeny todd
Barsoom
United Kingdom
249 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2009 : 16:36:07
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| wherever did you dig that photo up from anubis ,whilst it shows the ignorance of those who would do harm ,i do find the fact that he can not spell mildly amusing and before i get dragged over the coals for this comment i do know that this subject is not realy one to show levity! i do hope he wasnt educated in this country!!!! |
only borrow from a pessimist |
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Anubis
Calaspia
718 Posts |
Posted - 08/01/2009 : 19:29:57
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quote:
Originally posted by sweeny todd
wherever did you dig that photo up from anubis?
from the current Jewish Chronicle! |
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Israel, Palestine, et al ...