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Anubis
Calaspia
718 Posts |
 Posted - 15/01/2009 : 20:53:08
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"...... when you are confronted with an opponent who as a rule places its military installations near hospitals schools and residences then this is, sadly, inevitable."
Yes, it's just not cricket, is it Mim!? Why can't the Palestinian fighters be more like their opponents? After all, the Israeli line up their tanks, days in advance of the action, right out in the open, not alongside the homes and houses where people live. Why can't the Palestinians take their rifles and stand on a hill, well away from the schools and hospitals? Why can't they just play fair? The playing fields of Eton and all that stuff. Then there's the aircraft. The Israeli planes come over in their hordes, raining tons of explosives onto their victims. It's all quite open, no hiding behind bushes or in cellars or in tunnels. Why can't the Palestinians do the same -- and line up their aircraft with their bombs and rockets for all the world to see? Oh, sorry, I forgot; they don't have any planes, do they? Well, that's no excuse to go sneaking into little bunkers with their pathetic little rocket launchers? Against the impressive military technology, open to inspection for all to see -- why can't they 'play fair' and stand on the hill opposite with their slings and arrows; why can't they behave as English gentlemen would?
[Actually, it was Brecht who suggested what is today's action recipe. The oil magnates are all VERY dissatisfied with the Palestinian people -- they held a democratic election (and everybody agreed it was fair and legitimate) and dared to vote for Hamas. Hamas stands for a secular state -- understandably, the powers that be in our little world are VERY dissatisfied with those elected and are taking steps to kill as many of the elected Palestinians as they can; then maybe another 'free' election and vote in the people we agree with!]
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 15/01/2009 : 21:18:47
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Oh dear Anubis, what a facetious thing to say. What has cricket got to do with the price of strawberries? Actually Hamas did not just hold an election, they held a bloody coup ... Everything in the media is seemingly framed within the reference of the Arab-Israeli conflict. They tend to ignore the tensions that have come to the fore since the death of Yasser Arafat in 2004 and escalated into a bloodbath following the elections in 2006.
The sole reason I brought up those Palestinian human shields is in response to Blondie's claim that we only have the Israeli word on it. With all the partisanship on this thread ... someone has to keep balanced.
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"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Anubis
Calaspia
718 Posts |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
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n/a
deleted
1567 Posts |
Posted - 17/01/2009 : 09:49:02
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| anubis crimes have been commited on both sides,I do wonder what kind of obsessive person can single out a person because they are Jewish and try to put the Blame of the Israeli government on that persons shoulders?Miriam has condemned the actions on both sides since before this latest round of hostilities:why do you seem to be so antagonistic? |
keep on smiling |
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FunnyBones
Barsoom
Australia
144 Posts |
Posted - 18/01/2009 : 08:40:17
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| Yes crimes by both sides. Equivalence the great cop out. How' about something fair - like redefining the right of return so the poor sods who have been stuck in Gaza for 60+ years can go home. Quaint idea. I suspect our pro immigrationists (on this forum) will not be amused let alone keen. |
NL
It never pays a prophet to be too specific.
L Sprague de Camp |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 18/01/2009 : 09:43:15
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| Hiya NL. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Anubis
Calaspia
718 Posts |
Posted - 18/01/2009 : 11:50:57
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quote:
Originally posted by thedelboy
anubis crimes have been commited on both sides,I do wonder what kind of obsessive person can single out a person because they are Jewish and try to put the Blame of the Israeli government on that persons shoulders?Miriam has condemned the actions on both sides since before this latest round of hostilities:why do you seem to be so antagonistic?
It is a pity if these important issues are discussed in terms of the people chatting on this forum, Delboy. You ask, "what kind of obsessive person can single out a person because they are Jewish and try to put the blame of the Israeli government on that person's shoulders?" Answer, only a racist, Delboy -- and hopefully we have none of them on this forum.
The only demonstration about which I have some knowledge, was in London, where numerous Hamas and other Islamic posters were carried -- there was some shouting of Allahu akbar, but no anti-semitic slogans. Identifying Hamas with the resistance movement is understandable -- in Gaza they are the only people offering any kind of resistance to the Zionist invaders (although the casualty numbers for both sides is all the information necessary for any intelligent individual to be able to accurately estimate the miniscule strength of the resistance).
The Palestinians elected Hamas because of its military prowess and refusal to submit to a life under the Israeli jackboot. Having said that, my own opinion, for what it's worth, is that Hamas is a vile, anti-democratic, nationalistic and reactionary force that has no positive solution for the Palestinian or Israeli people. A very positive aspect of the London demonstration, I thought, was the popular chant being not "We are all Hamas", but rather, "We are all Palestinians" -- a slogan expressing solidarity, not with some reactionary grouping, but with an oppressed people.
Regarding your second query, I am unaware of any poster attaching some sort of "blame" on Mim for her views on the current hostilities. I believe the views she expressed regarding the differing tactics of the two 'sides', one of them a 'superpower' in regional military terms, the other armed equivalently with boomerangs and spears, to be absurd -- my guess is she agrees with me on this point ..... but that is not something I feel needs no further elaboration. |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 18/01/2009 : 12:06:44
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| Have you any views on the 'tyranny of the weak' Anubis? |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Anubis
Calaspia
718 Posts |
Posted - 18/01/2009 : 14:01:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
Have you any views on the 'tyranny of the weak' Anubis?
No. |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 18/01/2009 : 15:09:00
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It is worth thinking about especially in the context of the history of the Middle East
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"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Anubis
Calaspia
718 Posts |
Posted - 23/01/2009 : 13:36:24
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BY THEIR FRIENDS SHALL YE KNOW THEM!
The formerly anti-semitic British National Party has expressed support for Israel in the war against the Palestinians in Gaza.
Ruth Sneed of the Board of Deputies of British Jews stated: “The BNP website is now one of the most Zionist on the web - it goes further than any of the mainstream parties in its support to Israel and at the same time demonises Islam and the Muslim world.”
The head of the BNP, Nick Griffin, who was once a holocaust denier, says Israel is “the only civilised country in the region ... they are an example to us all because the only thing Islamic terrorists understand is force.”
The BNP head of legal affairs, Lee Barnes, says: “The sort of ‘disinfecting’ process whereby Israel is required to sterilise areas of radical Islamic support ... is what all nations have to do ...”
This heart-warming tribute to Zionism from British fascists shows a convergence of reactionary ideologies which, in fundamental terms, have never opposed each other.
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 23/01/2009 : 19:15:09
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| That's a bit rich coming from the man who wrote the 'Mindbenders' ... Ah well, a fox might eye a chicken but that don't make 'em bosom pals. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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sweeny todd
Barsoom
United Kingdom
249 Posts |
Posted - 23/01/2009 : 21:57:19
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| great analagy miriam!! |
only borrow from a pessimist |
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Fluffy Sheep
Discworld
1417 Posts |
Posted - 23/01/2009 : 22:15:29
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I doubt the Israelis would want to be associated with the BNP, whatever the BNP have been spouting, and for whatever reasons of their own.
If some BNP arsehole remarked to the press and got quoted saying hospital nurses are stretched to their limits by staffing shortages and bed crises, would their expressed opinion make me and my colleagues Fascists? |
Row faster, slaves! Caesar wants to waterski! |
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BLONDIE
Barsoom
491 Posts |
Posted - 24/01/2009 : 12:32:41
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| What worries me is that whilst Mr. Obama has spoken to most of the Middle East, I am given to understand that "Israel is NOT an option". Which leads me to think, rightly or wrongly, that Israel is going to carry on as before irrespective of World opinion and with the full backing of the American administration. Pictures I saw on TV this evening showing some of the terrible destruction in Gaza, together with civilians who said the Israeli forces refused to allow them to bury their dead, leaves me with a feeling of absolute disgust. This is barbaric scorched earth policy and whatever sympathy I may have had for Israel has long gone. They certainly had good teachers as far as the Nazi regime was concerned. |
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BLONDIE
Barsoom
491 Posts |
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Anubis
Calaspia
718 Posts |
Posted - 24/01/2009 : 14:30:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Fluffy Sheep
I doubt the Israelis would want to be associated with the BNP, whatever the BNP have been spouting, and for whatever reasons of their own.
Noone is suggesting the Israeli's would, Fluff. The Zionists, on the other hand, that tiny section of the Israeli people, were supported, funded and encouraged by the Nazis in the 1930s; in return they greeted Hitler's Nuremberg racist laws with support -- the "Law" when first published in the Reich was preceded by an endorsement from the world Zionist movement. Don't confuse Israeli's with Zionists -- don't confuse Germans with Nazis. (I've commented further on these distinctions earlier on this post.) |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 24/01/2009 : 20:29:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Anubis
Noone is suggesting the Israeli's would, Fluff.
Not at all clear within the context of your "BY THEIR FRIENDS SHALL YE KNOW THEM!" post Anubis ... a tad generalising that one maybe? |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Anubis
Calaspia
718 Posts |
Posted - 24/01/2009 : 22:14:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
quote:
Originally posted by Anubis
Noone is suggesting the Israeli's would, Fluff.
Not at all clear within the context of your "BY THEIR FRIENDS SHALL YE KNOW THEM!" post Anubis ... a tad generalising that one maybe?
Yes, agree with you, Mim. It's a fair cop! |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 24/01/2009 : 23:02:19
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| In fact, I would go one further and state that it says a lot more about the duplicitous nature of the pig-farmer and his party of primarily White Nationalist Fascistic xenophobes then it says about Israel. Not your post necessarily but his eagerness to denounce that Booth woman; something I must admit to finding a tad ... hmmmm how shall I put this .... ingeniously self-serving? |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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BLONDIE
Barsoom
491 Posts |
Posted - 24/01/2009 : 23:41:21
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| Perhaps Nick Griffin should go and live in Israel. I am sure that with his views they would welcome him with open arms. |
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camelot
Barsoom
USA
481 Posts |
Posted - 25/01/2009 : 23:48:05
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quote:
Originally posted by BLONDIE
What worries me is that whilst Mr. Obama has spoken to most of the Middle East, I am given to understand that "Israel is NOT an option". Which leads me to think, rightly or wrongly, that Israel is going to carry on as before irrespective of World opinion and with the full backing of the American administration.
I think you will find that this administration will be the most Pro-Israel in US History. |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 26/01/2009 : 00:13:26
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Cue Funny Bones?
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"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 26/01/2009 : 00:19:48
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Israel vows to back soldiers accused of war crimes
Which is all very well however I sincerely hope that this is only going to be in connection with any charges laid where officers are involved in civilian casualties where Hamas militants caused the civilian casualties by staging attacks from residential areas.
I sincerely hope this is not a carte blanche where an officer is going to be defended regardless.
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"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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FunnyBones
Barsoom
Australia
144 Posts |
Posted - 26/01/2009 : 02:45:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
Cue Funny Bones?
Yes Dear.
The BNP and the vast majority of the zillions of political parties in Israel do have one important thing in common. Namely a people like us (or no people not like us) immigration policy. And whilst I suspect Griffin is rather disingenous in his support for Israel there is some irony in these events. Liberal jews have long NOT supported a "people like us" immigration policy in the West (but the opposite for Israel).
Now that a truly anti-semitic monster is beginning to rear its ugly head, courtesy of past immigration policies, we are seeing the creation of some strange bedfellows.
The trouble is that much of the electorate in the west won't be too pleased to find out just how much their own demographics have been white anted by Zionist and other jewish interests over the last 50 to 100 years. Combined with the slaughter in Gaza, these descendants of those who actually fought the Nazis (US, UK, Canada etc etc) may just say "FU".
Kevin MacDonald (a branded anti-semite as opposed to a real, life threatening one) has covered this peculiar double standard to immigration at great length.
http://www.vdare.com/macdonald/070131_mideast.htm
http://www.kevinmacdonald.net/Immigration.pdf
NL
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NL
It never pays a prophet to be too specific.
L Sprague de Camp |
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BLONDIE
Barsoom
491 Posts |
Posted - 26/01/2009 : 02:56:04
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| That Camelot, it what I am afraid of. |
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FunnyBones
Barsoom
Australia
144 Posts |
Posted - 26/01/2009 : 03:06:25
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Re US/Israel support.
With a Chief of Staff who actually enlisted in the Israeli Army in 1991 (not the US army which he was equally entitled to join) during the first US/Iraq war, what would you expect? Soon as the cabinet was announced, I would imagine every arab worked out straight away that it would be business as normal.
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NL
It never pays a prophet to be too specific.
L Sprague de Camp |
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camelot
Barsoom
USA
481 Posts |
Posted - 26/01/2009 : 03:48:57
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Yes. And the chief of staff may seem more independent on the Israeli issue than our new secretary of state. The Clintons, doomed from the day Bill allowed Arafat an official White House visit, have been compromised (in my opinion) beyond any hope of an independent stance on Israel. The deals cut at the end of Bill Clinton’s admin where uncharacteristically obvious. (See presidential pardons, support of Iraq war, convincing Tony B. of same , and New York senate seat for Hillary; not exactly her home state )
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FunnyBones
Barsoom
Australia
144 Posts |
Posted - 26/01/2009 : 04:19:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
Israel vows to back soldiers accused of war crimes
Which is all very well however I sincerely hope that this is only going to be in connection with any charges laid where officers are involved in civilian casualties where Hamas militants caused the civilian casualties by staging attacks from residential areas.
I sincerely hope this is not a carte blanche where an officer is going to be defended regardless.
There is zero chance that anyone in Israel will end up in a court in the Hague. Whether politician or IDF.
NL |
NL
It never pays a prophet to be too specific.
L Sprague de Camp |
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Topic |
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Israel, Palestine, et al ...