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moon23
Calaspia


699 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2007 :  12:27:50  Show Profile  Visit moon23's Homepage  Reply with Quote
What do others think about the proposal by the UCU (Academic Union) to boycott Israeli academics and Universities over their states involvement in the West bank. This move is being spearheaded by Tom Hickey who is a lecturer at Brighton University.

I always thought that you couldn't fight intolerance with intolerance (
http://moon23.wordpress.com/2007/05/31/mr-thickey-the-israeli-boycott/) but do others think that
such a ban is justified?


http://www.moon23.wordpress.com

Daveb
Discworld



1896 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2007 :  12:38:17  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We should then not buy from China until they improve their human rights and stop killing us all with their CO2 emmissions.

We're all doomed!
Head for the hills before they start heading for you!
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moon23
Calaspia



699 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2007 :  12:45:16  Show Profile  Visit moon23's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Daveb

We should then not buy from China until they improve their human rights and stop killing us all with their CO2 emmissions.



If you couldn't buy things from china the shops would be quite empty. It is our consumption levels that are driving the need for high levels of production in China so we should look at reducing the amount we consume. This is best for global warming, a move towards a make do and mend society.

Back to the boycott, what good is closing down paths of communication going to do in the middle-east?


http://www.moon23.wordpress.com

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long time no see
Earthsea



United Kingdom
6457 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2007 :  12:47:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Daveb

We should then not buy from China until they improve their human rights and stop killing us all with their CO2 emmissions.





No buy from China?

Wallmart UK had a Quality bagless hoover for £20
Made in China.
That is too cheap to miss.


Sign Of The Times.
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Daveb
Discworld



1896 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2007 :  12:54:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was simply drawing a parralel.
If the stop communications with Israel then they should extend it to China for internal human rights and Tebet.
I am sure they could find some other countries if they tried.

Closing down communication is not usually productive.

We're all doomed!
Head for the hills before they start heading for you!
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moon23
Calaspia



699 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2007 :  13:55:54  Show Profile  Visit moon23's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Daveb

I was simply drawing a parralel.
If the stop communications with Israel then they should extend it to China for internal human rights and Tebet.
I am sure they could find some other countries if they tried.

Closing down communication is not usually productive.




Yes i'm sure they could boycott many nations if the same logic was extended. For instance Iran could be boycotted for Human rights abuses.


http://www.moon23.wordpress.com

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Denise
Barsoom



129 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2007 :  13:56:12  Show Profile  Visit Denise's Homepage  Reply with Quote
You can't stop intolerance with intolerance. Intolerance is best exposed and held up to ridicule.

This would be an own goal, though.

If any section of Israeli society has stood up for the rights of the Palestinians it is the Israeli academic community. To want to alienate them seems at best mishievious, and at worst malicious.

Voice of Reason / Norfolk Unity
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Daveb
Discworld



1896 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2007 :  14:41:24  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So really these wonderfully clever academics are being rather silly, sensationalist or simply biased.
One could even say racist, lock em up now!

We're all doomed!
Head for the hills before they start heading for you!
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea



United Kingdom
5323 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2007 :  15:06:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What a load of bull, one of the most strident groups opposed to the occupation and the marginalisation is the Israeli academia ... talk about getting it wrong.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin
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moon23
Calaspia



699 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2007 :  15:11:47  Show Profile  Visit moon23's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Daveb

So really these wonderfully clever academics are being rather silly, sensationalist or simply biased.
One could even say racist, lock em up now!



Tom Hickey isn't a clever academic, he hasn't even got a PhD. I don't know why Brighton carry on letting him teach students.


http://www.moon23.wordpress.com


Edited by - moon23 on 01/06/2007 15:12:19
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea



United Kingdom
5323 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2007 :  15:15:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not having a PhD means nothing Moon but he certainly is going for the wrong group here.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin
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moon23
Calaspia



699 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2007 :  15:19:42  Show Profile  Visit moon23's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder

Not having a PhD means nothing Moon but he certainly is going for the wrong group here.



Having PhD is pretty importnat if you are meant to be an academic Mim. You wouldn't want someone who wasn't a Dr treating you at Hospital and you wouldn't want someone who wasn't a Dr lecturing you at univeristy.

Unless they were lecturing in the arts I guess.


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Miriam Binder
Earthsea



United Kingdom
5323 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2007 :  15:24:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Some of the best care I've had in hospital has been from the nursing staff and some of the best lecturers I've had have been mere MA's and MPhils ...

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin
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moon23
Calaspia



699 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2007 :  15:36:23  Show Profile  Visit moon23's Homepage  Reply with Quote
31 May 2007
Russell Group response to UCU motion on Israel

Statement from The Russell Group on UCU motion on Israeli boycott
30 May 2007

The Russell Group of the UK’s research-intensive universities today strongly condemned the motion passed by the University and College Union for branches to debate the Israeli boycott.

Professor Malcolm Grant, Chairman of the Russell Group and President and Provost of UCL, said:
"We reject outright the call for an academic boycott. It is a contradiction in terms and in direct conflict with the mission of a university. It betrays a misunderstanding of the academic mission which is founded squarely on freedom of inquiry and freedom of speech. Any institution worthy of the title of university has the responsibility to protect these values, and it is particularly disturbing to find an academic union attacking academic freedom in this way.

"The Russell Group universities will uphold academic freedom by standing firm against any boycott that threatens it."

Notes for editors

1. The purpose of the Russell Group is to provide thought leadership and strategic direction for the 20 major research intensive universities of the UK; we aim to ensure that policy development in a wide range of issues relating to higher education is underpinned by a robust evidence base and a commitment to civic responsibility, improving life chances, raising aspirations and contributing to economic prosperity and innovation.

2. Formed in 1994 at a meeting convened in the Hotel Russell, London, the Group is composed of the Vice-Chancellors/Principals of the Universities listed here: http://www.russellgroup.ac.uk/

In 2004/5, Russell Group Universities accounted for 65% (over £1.8billion) of UK Universities' research grant and contract income, 56% of all doctorates awarded in the United Kingdom, and over 30% of all students studying in the United Kingdom from outside the EU. In the 2001 national Research Assessment Exercise, 78% of the staff in Grade 5* departments and 57% of the staff in Grade 5 departments were located in Russell Group Universities, and in 2004/5 Russell Group Universities were allocated approximately 64% of the total quality-related research funding (QR) allocated by the Funding Councils.

Russell Group media enquiries to Richard Wyatt - 07745 840718

The Russell Group



http://www.moon23.wordpress.com

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Daveb
Discworld



1896 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2007 :  15:36:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Level of Qualifications are usually inversely proportional to common sense. IMO

We're all doomed!
Head for the hills before they start heading for you!
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moon23
Calaspia



699 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2007 :  15:46:20  Show Profile  Visit moon23's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder

Some of the best care I've had in hospital has been from the nursing staff and some of the best lecturers I've had have been mere MA's and MPhils ...



Nurse example is completely different as nurses are meant to provide care. Dr's provide diagnosis and specialist knowledge. I’ve seen MA students with a really poor knowledge of their subject area teaching students and it isn’t acceptable.

I don't know any MA's or hardly an Mphils that teach cutting edge research, I’m sure there are some that can do some bog standard module teaching. A few PhD students might also be able to do some reasonable lecturing.

I think in order to be a proper academic you need to have a PhD in order to understand the process of research and to be actively engaged in research. I’m sure there is the odd person who is capable of doing the job without the qualifications but in a profession you need some basic level of qualification to stop frauds working their way into the structure.

Tom Hickey who is calling for this boycott doesn’t seem to have done hardly any research (having looked on online journals etc..) He also isn't involved in anything to do with Israeli universities.


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long time no see
Earthsea



United Kingdom
6457 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2007 :  15:56:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by moon23

quote:
Originally posted by Daveb

I was simply drawing a parralel.
If the stop communications with Israel then they should extend it to China for internal human rights and Tebet.
I am sure they could find some other countries if they tried.

Closing down communication is not usually productive.




Yes i'm sure they could boycott many nations if the same logic was extended. For instance Iran could be boycotted for Human rights abuses.





Evil Bush is doing that
and making it far worse
FACT.
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea



United Kingdom
5323 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2007 :  15:56:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nurses also provide treatment Moon. Ask Fluffy if you don't believe me.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin
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nightbird
Calaspia



603 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2007 :  16:09:21  Show Profile  Send nightbird an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Can somebody tell me what academics produce thats useful to the community at large?
My idea of somebody doing something usefull....

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/RAbrunel.htm
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea



United Kingdom
5323 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2007 :  16:20:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nightbird

Can somebody tell me what academics produce thats useful to the community at large?

Absolutely nothing Nightbird ...

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin
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moon23
Calaspia



699 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2007 :  16:42:12  Show Profile  Visit moon23's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nightbird

Can somebody tell me what academics produce thats useful to the community at large?
My idea of somebody doing something usefull....

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/RAbrunel.htm



DNA
PENCILLIN
ENGINES
GREEN TECHNOLOGY
CANCER DRUGS
STATISTICS On SOCIAL TRENDS
STRING THEORY
SOCIALSIM
WEALTH GENERATION
BUISNESS INNOVATION
DESIGN
MEDICAL TRAINING
PYSCHOLOGICAL UNDERSTANDING
THEORIES ON EATING DISORDERS
CONCETPUTALISATION OF UNCONCSIOSUS
CRITUQE OF RELIGION
UNDERSTANDING OF THEOLOGY
SKILLS TRAINING
RESEARCH PAPERS
EVOLUTION THEORY
HISTORICAL RESEARCH
ARCHOLOGICAL RESEARCH

etc etc..


http://www.moon23.wordpress.com

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nightbird
Calaspia



603 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2007 :  17:08:11  Show Profile  Send nightbird an AOL message  Reply with Quote
CONCEPTUALISATION OF UNCONSCIOUS

What the hell is that, students becoming comatose through alcohol
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moon23
Calaspia



699 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2007 :  17:23:17  Show Profile  Visit moon23's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nightbird

CONCEPTUALISATION OF UNCONSCIOUS

What the hell is that, students becoming comatose through alcohol





http://www.moon23.wordpress.com

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Borninhove
Calaspia



934 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2007 :  13:37:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Brighton's own Tom Hickey. Doesn't he make you proud?
quote:
Tom Hickey is Course Leader for the MA in Cultural and Critical Theory, (Critical Theory? Critical theory is social theory oriented toward critiquing and changing society as a whole - so how do you tell your students to "change society", Tom?)and Deputy Course Leader of the BA (Hons.) Humanities. He teaches on the 'Aesthetics' (Aesthetics? As in "Academic boycotts are aethetically vile")unit, the 'Philosophical Origins' unit and the 'Critical Traditions' unit of the MA. On the Humanities degree, he teaches aspects of the introductory courses on Philosophical Analysis and on the Conceptual History of Democracy (As in "there is a 'concept' that a democracy should encourage freedom of expression" - not boycott it.), on the Critical Traditions in Western Thought core course (Thought? Did much go into this boycott, I wonder?), on politics and international relations in the Modern World Studies course, and the 'Marx and Marxisms' (Oh THERE'S a surprise!) unit of the Politics of Human Nature course('Politics of Human Nature'?).

Tom's research is on aspects of political and artistic representation, and their interaction, on historiographical theory and the scientific method, on the theorisation of the contemporary world order, and on new developments in critical theory. They do love their jargon, these academics, don't they. Basically, he seems to be into rewriting history to suit his own prejudices, but why state that in plain English when academicese will ensure that only other academics can understand the plan. He has recently jointly edited a collection of historical essays on the struggle for democracy in England (Continuum, 2007), and was joint curator of the international festival on the work of the South African artist William Kentridge hosted by the University of Brighton in 2007 - 'Fragile Identities: Politics, Remembrance and Representation. He is joint organiser of the biennial international conference 'Globalisation and Resistance' (Yeah! Right on! That's something a Humanities student can REALLY get behind!! Let's resist!) that is hosted by the University, and recently organised a one-day conference on holocausts and their denials (Why the plural? Oh, yeah, I get it ... Moral equivilance time.). for Holocaust Memorial Day - 'Never Again - the Hows and Whys of Fighting Fascism' (Well, I would say an enforced academic boycott is a fairly fascistic action - are you going to have a big bonfire outside the University library and burn any journals or books with writings by Israeli academics in them, Tom? I am sure you could persuade your "Globalisation Resistors" to join in.).



Ad hominem rant over.

The boycott is ridiculous, fascistic, hypocritical and aesthetically displeasing.

Valhalla, I am coming!

Edited by - Borninhove on 02/06/2007 13:39:34
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Borninhove
Calaspia



934 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2007 :  07:19:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Editorial in today's Observer:
quote:
... there is nothing positive to be said about this decision. It will not ease the suffering of Palestinians and it will not soften Israeli policy. In fact, by snubbing even liberal Israeli academics, a boycott strengthens the case of hard-line politicians who prefer isolation since it justifies unilateralism and disengagement from the peace process.

This is not the first such vote by a British trade union. University lecturers debated a similar move last year. Last month, the National Union of Journalists voted for a boycott of everything Israeli, an absurd gesture since, if implemented, it would make reporting from Jerusalem impossible. All that motion achieved was to send a signal worldwide that, collectively, British journalists take a partisan view of Middle East news. Likewise, British universities have shown that they cannot distinguish between the policies of a state and the opinions of individuals within that state. They believe in the collective punishment of academics simply for being Israeli.

That would be sad enough, were it not that Israeli universities and media are among the freest in the Middle East. If British unions are in the business of solidarity, they might consider flinging gestures at Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria or Egypt where journalists and academics are imprisoned and tortured for expressing dissent. But they target only Israel.

That's what strikes me - the massive hypocrisy of singling out only Israel while ignoring much worse abuses elsewhere. It is a pathological condition.

Valhalla, I am coming!
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea



United Kingdom
5323 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2007 :  07:35:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Pathological schmathological ... Israeli are an easy target that will neither involve increased risk from suicide bombers or pronouncements of fatwahs.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin
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n/a
deleted



240 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2007 :  10:58:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Even I do not know the extend of the problem, I keep asking myself the same question, something very wrong are perceived by the Palestinian, otherwise what would they want to kill themselves as a suicide bombers?
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Borninhove
Calaspia



934 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2007 :  11:23:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quest - You take the child, you fill them from an early age with hatred. You take the adolescent, raging hormones and all, you promise them a paradise of neverending orgies. Producing a suicide bomber is not difficult if you start young enough.

Meanwhile, even that great bastion of American liberalism and Bush-basher supreme the New York Times has come out against the boycott in an editorial:
quote:
It is good to see that most respected British journalists, scholars and students — including the preponderance of British editorial writers and the heads of Oxford, Cambridge and 20 other top universities — as well as representatives of all major political parties condemned these malicious gestures.

Critical thinking and well-thought-out criticism are intrinsic to good scholarship and good journalism. These boycotts represent neither. Posturing like this only alienates the very forces in Israeli society that should be encouraged and offends the calling and honor of journalism and academia.

Posturing. Exactly.

Valhalla, I am coming!
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camelot
Barsoom



USA
294 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2007 :  14:45:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Borninhove


Meanwhile, even that great bastion of American liberalism and Bush-basher supreme the New York Times has come out against the boycott in an editorial


This is perhaps the funniest thing I've seen posted here in a long time

Back on topic..

Of course this boycott is non sense. I am only surprised by the huge response this is getting. This should have died on the news vine the day after it was announced. Why not just ignore the whole thing and let it go away? Or is there some propaganda value in keeping it going?
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea



United Kingdom
5323 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2007 :  15:42:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Much as I hate to admit it but it is the only notice Tom Hickey will ever get internationally ... he hasn't published much worth of note.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin
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Borninhove
Calaspia



934 Posts

Posted - 07/06/2007 :  05:40:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh No!

If HE'S against the boycott, that may well give others a reason to support it!

evilpatheticevilbleedingstinker

And the Wall Street Journal has noticed:
quote:
Not every criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. But the inverse, that criticism of the Jewish state is never anti-Semitic, can't be true either. To judge Israel by standards different than those applied to any other nation is racist in effect if not intent. That racism has become the British left's not so new defining ideology.

Valhalla, I am coming!

Edited by - Borninhove on 07/06/2007 06:21:26
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