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septicman
Alagaësía
77 Posts |
 Posted - 16/07/2007 : 12:54:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
However much the residents of Falmer may dislike it, they are not living in a different universe from the rest of us. They are no more exempt from the crowding of modern life then the rest of us. That area is not nor has it been for a considerable period of time an AONB in anything but name. That has now been rectified!
It has not been rectified, AFAIK, it has only been recommended for change. Slowly but surely, you will see fringe land chipped away at, creating more fringe land to be developed on etc. etc. Where do you stop? Surely we we build exclusively on brownfield BEFORE we gobble up AONB/Greenbelt? |
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septicman
Alagaësía
77 Posts |
Posted - 16/07/2007 : 13:01:27
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Out of interest, and to change the emphasis slightly. If the Falmer development is really about job creation and education (which it isn't, but bear with me)....
Why don't the council invite bids for the land, and award planning permission based on the numbers of full and part-time jobs created? The education thing would be pretty easy to set up, any corporate could probably do it. Surely this would deliver best value to the residents of East Brighton, rather than part-time, minimum wage seasonal jobs? |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5305 Posts |
Posted - 16/07/2007 : 13:23:37
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| Okay ... it hasn't been rectified yet but it is about to be. And not before time either. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Daveb
Discworld
1890 Posts |
Posted - 16/07/2007 : 13:28:05
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quote:
Originally posted by septicman
Out of interest, and to change the emphasis slightly. If the Falmer development is really about job creation and education (which it isn't, but bear with me)....
Why don't the council invite bids for the land, and award planning permission based on the numbers of full and part-time jobs created? The education thing would be pretty easy to set up, any corporate could probably do it. Surely this would deliver best value to the residents of East Brighton, rather than part-time, minimum wage seasonal jobs?
I would think 20-30% of jobs in Brighton & Hove are already in this bracket. If as another report suggests, the local residents do not (sorry)have the suitable skills for the stadium jobs why should they have the skills for any other industry. |
We're all doomed!
Head for the hills before they start heading for you! |
Edited by - Daveb on 16/07/2007 16:12:40 |
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septicman
Alagaësía
77 Posts |
Posted - 16/07/2007 : 14:00:04
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| Then we should be arguing to maximise these sorts of jobs? |
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sully
Alagaësía
40 Posts |
Posted - 16/07/2007 : 14:00:29
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quote:
Originally posted by septicman
Wrong how?
As you asked:
You've answered point 1 already by reminding us that LDC commissioned a transport report for Sheepcote which highlighted the fact that the junction at the top of Wilson Avenue couldn't cope and that you couldn't stop people trying to street park around the area. If nothing new came out of the information, there will be nothing new in the decision, surely? The fact is that the new decision will consider ALL the information that was presented by all parties at both public inquiries as well as the further submissions requested by Ruth Kelly.
Point 2 - you are presumably referring to the second inquiry again. It has been pointed out to you on NSC that this inquiry considered the alternative sites and stated categorically that none had any chance of gaining planning permission. THERE WAS NO COMMENT ON THE FALMER SITE IN THAT REPORT.
Point 3 - this one presumably refers to the first inquiry that suggested that the Falmer site failed ultimately because alternative sites were available. Something that was proved to be FATALLY FLAWED by the second inquiry (see point 2).
So, as I said, totally wrong on your simple summary.
The AONB boundary change proposed for the SDNP merely answers one of the points that Ruth Kelly asked for more information on, which LDC got back to front every time they mentioned it - the effect of the SDNP on the site (not the effect of the stadium on the SDNP).
quote:
What about the proposed Shoreham development plans? They could have a huge bearing on the location of the stadium....
How can they effect the location of the stadium?
quote:
We don't need to guess - we have the attendance figures from the Goldstone and from Withdean, and the Withdean is more than big enough to accommodate the fans that Brighton have, and for the last TEN years at the Goldstone. These are the people that actually are prepared to spend money to watch the team play, which is the real test of people's commitment to the club - and it isn't many. Of course, it is cheaper to watch Chelsea play in some parts of Stamford Bridge than it is to go to the Withdean to watch tier 3 football, which may explain a lot.
Several of the games that have been played at Withdean have had over 20,000 ticket applications. It has been explained to you many times that it's a terrible place to watch football, and the club are clearly missing out on many fans who won't pay top dollar for "Albania Division 8" facilities. The last 10 years at the Goldstone was a period when attendances were down across the country. It is fair to say that the majority of clubs have seen an increase in attendances since then. However, it's something that can't be proved either way until it happens..... |
Involved in Scouting?
Take part in the 40th Sussex Downsman Hike. 6 October 2007.
See www.downsman.com for details |
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sully
Alagaësía
40 Posts |
Posted - 16/07/2007 : 14:04:51
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quote:
Originally posted by nightbird
The thing that worries me is the Albion will not generate enough income to service such a debt they will have.
Its building will be a stop and start affair for decades, can only see it slowly turning into another retail park to get finance unless Brighton council put our money into it.
Time will tell....
The original business plan was to build the stadium in stages, but that is not now the case, and the project will be built in one phase. Why do you think it'll be a "stop start afair"? |
Involved in Scouting?
Take part in the 40th Sussex Downsman Hike. 6 October 2007.
See www.downsman.com for details |
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sully
Alagaësía
40 Posts |
Posted - 16/07/2007 : 14:08:07
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quote:
Originally posted by septicman
part-time, minimum wage seasonal jobs?
Are these the jobs that Falmer Parish Council suggested the people of East Brighton were UNDER-qualified to do?
You antis really need to get your argument straight on this one! |
Involved in Scouting?
Take part in the 40th Sussex Downsman Hike. 6 October 2007.
See www.downsman.com for details |
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nightbird
Calaspia
603 Posts |
Posted - 16/07/2007 : 14:32:40
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quote:
Originally posted by sully
quote:
Originally posted by nightbird
The thing that worries me is the Albion will not generate enough income to service such a debt they will have.
Its building will be a stop and start affair for decades, can only see it slowly turning into another retail park to get finance unless Brighton council put our money into it.
Time will tell....
The original business plan was to build the stadium in stages, but that is not now the case, and the project will be built in one phase. Why do you think it'll be a "stop start afair"?
Cash flow, the main cause of buisness failure. |
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sully
Alagaësía
40 Posts |
Posted - 16/07/2007 : 16:11:35
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quote:
Originally posted by nightbird
quote:
Originally posted by sully
quote:
Originally posted by nightbird
The thing that worries me is the Albion will not generate enough income to service such a debt they will have.
Its building will be a stop and start affair for decades, can only see it slowly turning into another retail park to get finance unless Brighton council put our money into it.
Time will tell....
The original business plan was to build the stadium in stages, but that is not now the case, and the project will be built in one phase. Why do you think it'll be a "stop start afair"?
Cash flow, the main cause of buisness failure.
Construction will start when the finances are in place. Cashflow will be an issue after the club move in, not before! |
Involved in Scouting?
Take part in the 40th Sussex Downsman Hike. 6 October 2007.
See www.downsman.com for details |
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septicman
Alagaësía
77 Posts |
Posted - 16/07/2007 : 16:52:26
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quote:
Originally posted by sully
quote:
Originally posted by septicman
Wrong how?
As you asked:
You've answered point 1 already by reminding us that LDC commissioned a transport report for Sheepcote which highlighted the fact that the junction at the top of Wilson Avenue couldn't cope and that you couldn't stop people trying to street park around the area. If nothing new came out of the information, there will be nothing new in the decision, surely? The fact is that the new decision will consider ALL the information that was presented by all parties at both public inquiries as well as the further submissions requested by Ruth Kelly.
What will be new (or should be but won't)is the nfact that on numerous occasions Prescott justified his decision because the stadium is in the built up area of the local plan. As it isn't, they will somehow have to justify it using other means. Difficult I would have thought, which is why the jobs aspect is so important.
Point 2 - you are presumably referring to the second inquiry again. It has been pointed out to you on NSC that this inquiry considered the alternative sites and stated categorically that none had any chance of gaining planning permission. THERE WAS NO COMMENT ON THE FALMER SITE IN THAT REPORT.
It stated that there was no prospect of any other site getting planning permission. How do you think that goes in light of the regeneration plan at Shoreham? The inspector thought this was a good place to put the stadium. Bear in mind though that no other site has had the detail of a public enquiry, and there are mixed opinions on the suitability of Sheepcote. You don't like it, others do.
Point 3 - this one presumably refers to the first inquiry that suggested that the Falmer site failed ultimately because alternative sites were available. Something that was proved to be FATALLY FLAWED by the second inquiry (see point 2).
Tosh. The stadium failed in its own right as there was no national interest served by the development and it failed the test of need. For those who are interested, this link shows the inspectors summary.
http://www.lewes.gov.uk/Files/plan_falmer_report.pdf
So, as I said, totally wrong on your simple summary.
The AONB boundary change proposed for the SDNP merely answers one of the points that Ruth Kelly asked for more information on, which LDC got back to front every time they mentioned it - the effect of the SDNP on the site (not the effect of the stadium on the SDNP).
quote:
What about the proposed Shoreham development plans? They could have a huge bearing on the location of the stadium....
How can they effect the location of the stadium?
quote:
We don't need to guess - we have the attendance figures from the Goldstone and from Withdean, and the Withdean is more than big enough to accommodate the fans that Brighton have, and for the last TEN years at the Goldstone. These are the people that actually are prepared to spend money to watch the team play, which is the real test of people's commitment to the club - and it isn't many. Of course, it is cheaper to watch Chelsea play in some parts of Stamford Bridge than it is to go to the Withdean to watch tier 3 football, which may explain a lot.
Several of the games that have been played at Withdean have had over 20,000 ticket applications. It has been explained to you many times that it's a terrible place to watch football, and the club are clearly missing out on many fans who won't pay top dollar for "Albania Division 8" facilities. The last 10 years at the Goldstone was a period when attendances were down across the country. It is fair to say that the majority of clubs have seen an increase in attendances since then. However, it's something that can't be proved either way until it happens.....
Hardly anyone's problem but the club surely? They control ticket pricing? The club's attendances are in line with the division? The attendances weren't great in the Championship, you couldn't even fill the ground then?
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septicman
Alagaësía
77 Posts |
Posted - 16/07/2007 : 16:55:49
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quote:
Originally posted by sully
quote:
Originally posted by septicman
part-time, minimum wage seasonal jobs?
Are these the jobs that Falmer Parish Council suggested the people of East Brighton were UNDER-qualified to do?
You antis really need to get your argument straight on this one!
The argument is completely straight, it is your interpretation that is flawed. What FPC did was analyse the jobs at the stadium and compare them to the skill sets of the East Brighton unemployed.
Check the link, it's interesting reading by a well respected expert who has done work for Prescott:
http://www.angelfire.com/space/falmer/sub1.mht
It poins out the many flaws in the stadium plan and the "regeneration" idea. |
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Infinite Poppadum
Discworld
1235 Posts |
Posted - 16/07/2007 : 20:12:56
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This story is of course no reflection on the Albion but it is indicative of the business pressures under which clubs now work..
The Albion is no more a "local" team than any other area's with all the transfer costs.
http://football.guardian.co.uk/News_Story/0,,2127646,00.html |
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Daveb
Discworld
1890 Posts |
Posted - 16/07/2007 : 20:30:16
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quote:
Originally posted by septicman
Hardly anyone's problem but the club surely? They control ticket pricing? The club's attendances are in line with the division? The attendances weren't great in the Championship, you couldn't even fill the ground then?
[/quote]
They were very good in the 70s when they were and old Div 3 club.
A new stadium to generate interest, attract better players and on to success then the fans will return. Reasonable ticket prices will help. Pack em in cheap and make it a big home advantage.
All the locals from East Brighton may even visit. Not to mention those from Falmer.
Think positive for a change.
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We're all doomed!
Head for the hills before they start heading for you! |
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sully
Alagaësía
40 Posts |
Posted - 17/07/2007 : 09:10:38
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quote:
Originally posted by septicman
The club's attendances are in line with the division? The attendances weren't great in the Championship, you couldn't even fill the ground then?
The club filled the ground (sold all the "home" tickets available)for every match for the first 5 years at Withdean (something like an average of 97% of seats filled in the entire ground). That was mostly at a level LOWER than Championship, with some away teams bringing very few supporters (particularly if they'd visited before!).
This shows the potential crowds exist.
The figures for virtually all of the last 15 years are affected by various things that make predicting the future very difficult indeed.
In my lifetime, crowds have generally been high for the division we have been in. The fact that they are currently only average says more about the venue than anything else, as we keep telling you. |
Involved in Scouting?
Take part in the 40th Sussex Downsman Hike. 6 October 2007.
See www.downsman.com for details |
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sully
Alagaësía
40 Posts |
Posted - 17/07/2007 : 09:21:12
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quote:
Originally posted by septicman
quote:
Originally posted by sully
quote:
Originally posted by septicman
part-time, minimum wage seasonal jobs?
Are these the jobs that Falmer Parish Council suggested the people of East Brighton were UNDER-qualified to do?
You antis really need to get your argument straight on this one!
The argument is completely straight, it is your interpretation that is flawed. What FPC did was analyse the jobs at the stadium and compare them to the skill sets of the East Brighton unemployed.
Check the link, it's interesting reading by a well respected expert who has done work for Prescott:
http://www.angelfire.com/space/falmer/sub1.mht
It poins out the many flaws in the stadium plan and the "regeneration" idea.
I refer you to clause 2.8. "without detailed survey, but based on some knowledge of the area", which rather makes it a pretty worthless report.
Your continued references to "only burger flipping" jobs being available is, however, rubbished by this: "Only 43 (24%) of these jobs are likely to go to low-skilled manual and thus be accessible to those with no qualifications." (Clause 5.5)
So, like I said, your analogy of the jobs is WRONG, even by FPC's evidence. |
Involved in Scouting?
Take part in the 40th Sussex Downsman Hike. 6 October 2007.
See www.downsman.com for details |
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sully
Alagaësía
40 Posts |
Posted - 17/07/2007 : 09:24:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Infinite Poppadum
The Albion is no more a "local" team than any other area's with all the transfer costs.
I'm sorry, but you're wrong.
The club have a huge percentage of local players in the first team. Last season, there were several occasions where 10 of the players on the pitch had come through the youth scheme.
We spend so little on transfers that the record transfer fee paid still dates back to the early 80s! |
Involved in Scouting?
Take part in the 40th Sussex Downsman Hike. 6 October 2007.
See www.downsman.com for details |
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nightbird
Calaspia
603 Posts |
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septicman
Alagaësía
77 Posts |
Posted - 21/07/2007 : 09:46:10
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quote:
Originally posted by nightbird
Was it ever about a community stadium ? from this report it seems there were other motifs behind this to open up more land for development around Falmer...
http://www.theargus.co.uk/display.var.1562481.0.falmer_stadium_could_spark_business_boom.php
Was there ever any doubt? This has always been property development for profit, and now we're proved right. As was said from day one of the plans, this has never been about the community. |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5305 Posts |
Posted - 21/07/2007 : 09:51:30
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quote:
Originally posted by septicman
Was there ever any doubt? This has always been property development for profit, and now we're proved right. As was said from day one of the plans, this has never been about the community.
There are ramifications behind the development of the community stadium  shock and horror, tut tut and tsk tsk. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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FG1
Alagaësía
Wallis and Futuna Islands
37 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 07:49:03
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The Argus has been building up the excitement about the letter from Blears this morning but unfortunately it isn't in the 7am delivery to Albion.
Haven't we all been there? |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5305 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 08:09:00
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| Oh yes ... you should hear the saga of my replacement bank card. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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FG1
Alagaësía
Wallis and Futuna Islands
37 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 09:08:16
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| Go ahead confirmed by Falmer Parish Council. Call Josh and give the job to Karis. |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5305 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 09:17:08
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| Cue Septic ... I knew it was a foregone conclusion. Well done there Albion. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Control Panel
Discworld
1166 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 09:26:49
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| What next for Falmer? |
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moon23
Calaspia
699 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 10:08:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Control Panel
What next for Falmer?
Mixed retail development.
It is a shame for the environemt, I suspect i'll come back down to Brighton in years to come and see that the Stadium combined with the University has spread further onto Downland.
I'm sure many football fans are happy though and of course our society allways puts fuffilling the happiness of the majority over environmental concerns. |
http://www.moon23.wordpress.com
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No Expert
Barsoom
398 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 11:41:18
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Like when they built the house you're sat in? Or the roads you travel on? Or the computer you're using?
Like that?
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5305 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 11:45:51
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| Don't mind Moon No Expert ... it's just sour grapes for dessert with him. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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No Expert
Barsoom
398 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 12:00:57
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Got that right. And in other news, I imagine septicman to be all bitter too.
Shame.
*waggles hands*
Waaaaaaaaaa! |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5305 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 12:04:56
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| Oh, he'll just spout about how it was all a foregone conclusion and it just shows how corrupt the whole system is. I actually do not disagree with him in principle I have to say but ... sometimes lemons just turn into lemonade and this is one of those instances. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Topic |
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Community Stadium