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nightbird
Calaspia
603 Posts |
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septicman
Alagaësía
77 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 12:18:14
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Thanks Miriam, actually having a quick look at the decision document shows just how much latitude the SoS has in planning matters. You can just disgree without the need to quote facts or anything like that which gets in the way of the decision you're going to make. All you need to show is that you have considered something and then discounted it. So for example, you can say as little as "B&H say one thing, LDC another, but I side with B&H, and that's it". I have expected this for ages, so I'm not disappointed. I feel desperately sorry for the Falmer residents though. As someone on The Argus website said, it's being built, but for all the wrong reasons. It would have been interesting to see if the benefits to the community actually accrue, but of course we'll never know.
I will look forward to seeing if LDC and FPC appeal, but I doubt they have anywhere to go, even if they are in the right. I have found this whole process depressing from the point of view of protecting individuals, communities and greenbelt from inappropriate development, and I really fail to understand the need for an enquiry process, given that this was clearly a pre-determined outcome. |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5805 Posts |
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nightbird
Calaspia
603 Posts |
 Posted - 24/07/2007 : 12:37:19
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Now they have the decision from Mrs Blear the reality of financing the Stadium is going to be a nightmare.
Just hope Brighton council don't commit any more council money to what is essentialy a private developement. |
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septicman
Alagaësía
77 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 12:41:28
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| Interestingly, the decision letter states that the development will cause "considerable harm to the AONB". Staggering. |
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No Expert
Barsoom
427 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 12:55:24
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| How will you spend your time now septic? Perhaps you could try to cultivate 'real life' friends? |
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moon23
Calaspia
841 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 13:20:17
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When business combines with the wishes of the dedicated and vocal fanbase then there was never going to be any other outcome. At least now Brighton residents will not have to listen to the fans whining on about their precious stadium. They will be content and happy.
Environmentalist and Conservationist are used to losing such planning decisions so it does not come as any great shock or upset.
As a society we value the rights of individuals to enjoy themselves and plunder natural resources over any considerations for wildlife or long-term environmental sustainability. Things are changing but this decision shows how far we have to go.
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Tombstone Blues
Earthsea
2162 Posts |
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Control Panel
Discworld
1211 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 13:37:28
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So now the Albion have to build it.
Can they? |
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Infinite Poppadum
Discworld
1292 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 13:40:48
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The presence of the University, once described as being notable for a sylvan setting, is now cited as a reason to build a stadium. So a stadium could be used as a reason for more building, especially if the Stadium needs 'enabling' stuff.
Looks to me as if it could be the start of a whole bunch of ribbon development along the A27. |
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nightbird
Calaspia
603 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 13:52:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Control Panel
So now the Albion have to build it.
Can they?
£50 million+ how are they going to raise that?
Looks like another retail park on the way..... |
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Drizzlecake
Alagaësía
49 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 14:15:03
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The Argus' leader right on the ball, quote...
"Ruth Kelly's "yes" decision today..."
Wakey Wakey Argus! PS Gordon Brown is the PM now! |
Alive in 2008 thanks to the surgeons and all the staff at the Royal Sussex Oncology Dept. |
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long time no see
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6771 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 14:56:49
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quote:
Originally posted by nightbird
quote:
Originally posted by Control Panel
So now the Albion have to build it.
Can they?
£50 million+ how are they going to raise that?
Looks like another retail park on the way.....
They can Not Raise that fund.
It will be Big Loans.
Big Debts.
Dodgy. |
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moon23
Calaspia
841 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 15:05:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Infinite Poppadum
The presence of the University, once described as being notable for a sylvan setting, is now cited as a reason to build a stadium. So a stadium could be used as a reason for more building, especially if the Stadium needs 'enabling' stuff.
Looks to me as if it could be the start of a whole bunch of ribbon development along the A27.
bang on |
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long time no see
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6771 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 15:30:41
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Ikea
would be nice then. |
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sully
Alagaësía
40 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 15:37:20
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quote:
Originally posted by septicman
Interestingly, the decision letter states that the development will cause "considerable harm to the AONB". Staggering.
Read it all septic
", she concludes that, on balance, the mitigation measures are sufficient to outweigh the identified harm. Accordingly, she does not consider that measures in addition to those proposed by the applicant are required."
As ever, you only see the bits you want to see! |
Involved in Scouting?
Take part in the 40th Sussex Downsman Hike. 6 October 2007.
See www.downsman.com for details |
Edited by - sully on 24/07/2007 15:47:49 |
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sully
Alagaësía
40 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 15:39:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Infinite Poppadum
The presence of the University, once described as being notable for a sylvan setting, is now cited as a reason to build a stadium. So a stadium could be used as a reason for more building, especially if the Stadium needs 'enabling' stuff.
Looks to me as if it could be the start of a whole bunch of ribbon development along the A27.
You understand that "enabling" works are what is required BEFORE something is built, don't you?
If you're worried about "ribbon development", how come there were no objections to the continued building by the Universities? |
Involved in Scouting?
Take part in the 40th Sussex Downsman Hike. 6 October 2007.
See www.downsman.com for details |
Edited by - sully on 24/07/2007 15:43:29 |
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sully
Alagaësía
40 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 15:46:19
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quote:
Originally posted by long time no see
quote:
Originally posted by nightbird
quote:
Originally posted by Control Panel
So now the Albion have to build it.
Can they?
£50 million+ how are they going to raise that?
Looks like another retail park on the way.....
They can Not Raise that fund.
It will be Big Loans.
Big Debts.
Dodgy.
Much will be grants.
Please do try to keep up!
If you recall, it was ageed - even by LDC - at the inquiry that it was affordable. |
Involved in Scouting?
Take part in the 40th Sussex Downsman Hike. 6 October 2007.
See www.downsman.com for details |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5805 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 16:07:29
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| Congratulations Sully and all you hard working campaigners! Well done and the best of British to you all. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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long time no see
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6771 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 16:15:04
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Some Grants
Some Loans.
Sign Of The Times. |
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sully
Alagaësía
40 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 16:36:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
Congratulations Sully and all you hard working campaigners! Well done and the best of British to you all.
Thank you.
Not celebrating just yet, though. I still expect LDC to make us sweat a bit more! |
Involved in Scouting?
Take part in the 40th Sussex Downsman Hike. 6 October 2007.
See www.downsman.com for details |
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Daveb
Earthsea
2201 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 20:03:08
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| Do you think two or three people in Albion scarves would be welcome at The Swan tonight? |
We're all doomed!
Head for the hills before they start heading for you! |
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septicman
Alagaësía
77 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 20:57:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Daveb
Do you think two or three people in Albion scarves would be welcome at The Swan tonight?
Only if you use them to hang yourselves with. |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5805 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 21:08:23
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quote:
Originally posted by septicman
Only if you use them to hang yourselves with.
Come come Septic old chap, doing it a tad too brown don't you think. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Daveb
Earthsea
2201 Posts |
Posted - 24/07/2007 : 21:30:47
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So it appears Septic is a bad loser, even though he thinks he has been proved right.
I am not so sure another business park is sustainable?
I suspect he can go and find another load of planning applications to wade through and remain bitter.
Coming to a planning committe near you.
Look, up in the balcony
Is it nerd?
Is it a misrable git?
Yes it's Septicman.
Look out Sussex Cricket Club it could be you. |
We're all doomed!
Head for the hills before they start heading for you! |
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septicman
Alagaësía
77 Posts |
Posted - 25/07/2007 : 09:24:44
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Of course people are bitter, this is not a compromise issue, it's an either or. The whole point is that the anti arguments have been ignored by the Secretary Of State despite the Falmer enquiry concluding that the application "overwhelmingly" failed the test of need for development. As an example, the stadium has been OK'd because it is supposed to bring "re-generation" benefits. Firstly, re-generation suggests that there has been something successful in that location in the first place that has declined, whereas of course this is not the case. The stadium was designed for one purpose - to act as somewhere for the club to play and to make money, the most important number one thing. What they have tried to do is retro-fit the community benefits having first decided on where the stadium is to go. None of the so-called community stuff is location dependent and could go anywhere in the city, as it does now. As for the job creation, the govt.'s own figures show that there are plenty of jobs in this town of the sort suitable for East Brighton residents, therefore the stadium will not add anything to the mix that isn't already there. The real question is why the residents don't want/won't take/can't do the jobs already available. Normally a re-generation project would start from the basis of what is it we are trying to do, for who and how, but this hasn't been the case here.
BTW, in her decision letter, Ms Blears admits the stadium will do significant harm to the AONB. Maybe this is why the anti-campaigners have fought as long as they have. Certainly LDC Lib Dems won two elections whilst the football fight went on. To pretend that some huge and overwhelming majority is in favour of the stadium is fantasy, as the supposition has never been tested. The so-called referendum offered no choices as to where the stadium went except Falmer. Do you really think people were going to vote no to Falmer given only one option? Even so, only 15-20% of the electorate voted for Falmer. In most referenda, the winners are required to get more than 50% of the total electorate. The turn out for the referendum was 35% or so.
I can entirely understand the bitterness on both sides. I think the antis have always known this was a losing battle. A good example of how things go is the new Emirates stadium where Arsenal play. The site they play on was made available despite their being up to 140 businesses on the new site. The labour govt. instructed the land to be compulsorily purchased, despite an enquiry where the inspector found that the stadium would bring little economic benefit to the area. How can this be right or fair? B&H's own economic figures were used to demonstrate that when the Albion played at the Goldstone, there was no difference to the city's economic figures when the Goldstone disappeared, nor when they returned.
The problem is, it has always appeared to be a done deal, hence the bitterness. |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5805 Posts |
Posted - 25/07/2007 : 09:59:08
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As already stated on a previous forum I was largely ambivalent about the stadium. If I thought about it at all and if I had been pushed for an answer in the early years my response would most likely have been a resounding no. Admittedly that would have been more to do with my utter disgust at what happened at the Goldstone grounds coupled with a total ignorance of the whys and wherefores behind that fiasco and a personal intense dislike of the game.
The unfolding threads on a previous forums certainly took care of my ignorance, did nothing at all to alter my personal feelings about the game, served to correctly direct my disgust at the Goldstone fiasco to the authors of the same and by and large however kept me ambivalent at best regarding the building, or not, of the Falmer COMMUNITY Stadium.
The turning point for me was that by and large the pro-stadium mob came up with rational responses and the anti-stadium mob appeared to consist largely of cultural snobs, as in the style of our illustrious Moon23 or by economically driven materialists a la Septic. The fact that both sides of the anti-stadium mob have made attempts to justify their stance by resorting to thinly veiled emotional blackmail by claiming 'conservation' as their primary concern - whether environmental or socio-political has had quite a lot of bearing on my conversion. And I dare say I am not the only one. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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No Expert
Barsoom
427 Posts |
Posted - 25/07/2007 : 10:29:18
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| I couldn't have put it better myself Mim. I'm no particular fan of the seagulls but as time has gone on I've found their case to be the most cogent. |
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septicman
Alagaësía
77 Posts |
Posted - 25/07/2007 : 10:30:39
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| Miriam, with respect if I called something white, you'd say it was black. On both sides there have been rational and irrational arguments. IMHO the thing to do is look at why the stadium has been granted planning permission. Like it or not, it is solely about creating job opportunities for the less fortunate in East Brighton, a laudable aim, although as long as the stadium is built I'm sure no-one cares where the workers come from. (In fact no-one seems to be talking about the community aspect since the decision, strangely enough). If this is the case, and Ms Blears says it is, I do not understand why no effort has been made to look at the average job market in B&H and surrounding areas, and then compare it to the skills of the unemployed East Brighton residents, for whom I assume this scheme is intended. This is nothing other than a rational approach, if Miriam, that is what you are really interested in. If this were to be done, as it was by LDC using the Governments own figures and interviews with Job Centre managers, it would be soon discovered that there are plenty of jobs available of the type that will be offered by the stadium. So, please let us all know, why will the residents go and work in the stadium, when they permanently have the opportunity, like everyone else, of working in town? And why should the stadium be built on this basis? The real truth is that the stadium is for money making purposes - how could it be otherwise? Why do you have a problem with people trying to maintain their quality of life and ensuring that people stick to the rules? Is it just because you're contrary by nature? |
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sully
Alagaësía
40 Posts |
Posted - 25/07/2007 : 13:05:43
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Septic, your arguments are getting boring.
All the points you have stated above have been proved to be incorrect or half-truths so many times I've lost count.
Just accept you are wrong and get over it. |
Involved in Scouting?
Take part in the 40th Sussex Downsman Hike. 6 October 2007.
See www.downsman.com for details |
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Topic |
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Community Stadium