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Anubis
Calaspia
718 Posts |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 27/07/2008 : 21:55:01
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| Students as a group have always had more radicals in their midst then any other sector of society. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Anubis
Calaspia
718 Posts |
 Posted - 28/07/2008 : 11:15:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
Students as a group have always had more radicals in their midst then any other sector of society.
Everybody should feel free to come out with vague, meaningless platitudes in response to serious observations, from time to time -- although perhaps, Mim, you abuse the privilege?
I know of no evidence that "students as a group have always had more radicals in their midst"; your claim does not seem to have been supported by this particular YouGov study, which found a "large minority of Muslim students ... are socially conservative", 32% justified killing in the name of religion, "if the religion was under attack" (60% in Islamic societies did so) but only 4% thought killing to promote religion was permissable. I'm sure the figures in comparative Christian groups are comparable -- witness the 'acceptability' of this kind of thinking reflected in the frequent exhortations from US senior ranks to their troops at the time of the Iraq invasion (we have no reports of internal complaints within the US, at any level of the command).
Students have the 'reputation'; in practice, in times of revolution, uprisings etc., (the General Strike 1926, in this country), the Student movements have often been very conservative. Perhaps what you ought to say is that young people, free of the economic constraints and responsibilities of adulthood, are more 'free' to express their naturally radical views, and as most students are youngsters .... and more 'educated' and hence more articulate! |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 28/07/2008 : 12:35:25
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Abuse? Such a strong word Anubis and so unnecessary ... I just feel that mayhaps a lot of importance is attached to what are essentially small figures. Of course it is nice to show that a percentage of 'x' in a groups of 'y' are more extremists then in their views. However it would be far more realistic to talk about per capita terms and in those terms the actual number of extremists is rather minute really. Further, it is always easy to attack the thought however how many of them would go so far as to translate these thoughts into action?
Hey hop ... as long as we can keep stoking the embers of fear ... |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Anubis
Calaspia
718 Posts |
Posted - 28/07/2008 : 18:23:21
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 28/07/2008 : 19:17:19
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"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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camelot
Barsoom
USA
481 Posts |
Posted - 29/07/2008 : 00:18:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
Students as a group have always had more radicals in their midst then any other sector of society.
I think this is true because they have the time and the resources to study the situation as it exists...In politics here in the US, the young and the old seem to be the most politically aware and active...everyone in between is to busy earning a living and raising a family to pay attention. |
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camelot
Barsoom
USA
481 Posts |
Posted - 29/07/2008 : 00:27:23
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On a more (or less) humourous note...
Wiccan stabs herself in foot with sword during cemetery ritual
LEBANON, Ind. — A woman accidentally stabbed herself in the foot with a 3-foot-long sword while performing a Wiccan good luck ritual at a central Indiana cemetery.
Katherine Gunther, 36, of Lebanon, pierced her left foot with the sword while performing the rite at Oak Hill Cemetery, police said.
Gunther said she was performing the ceremony to give thanks for a recent run of good luck. The ceremony involves the use of candles, incense and driving swords into the ground during the full moon. Gunther said was aiming to put the sword in the ground, but hit her foot instead.
‘‘It wasn’t the first time I performed the ritual, but it was the first time I put a sword through my foot,’’ she said.
http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/1068342,wic072208.article |
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BLONDIE
Barsoom
491 Posts |
Posted - 29/07/2008 : 14:45:23
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| Anyone know where I can get a supply of black candles ?? |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
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gcrkfrd
Calaspia
USA
524 Posts |
Posted - 29/07/2008 : 18:08:51
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| Somehow, surprising, that You would know. |
Much that Once was, is now lost |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 29/07/2008 : 18:16:39
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| Google was my friend on this occasion. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Daveb
Earthsea
2823 Posts |
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Anubis
Calaspia
718 Posts |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2008 : 09:39:50
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| Well, that is Dawkins opinion ... my experience would lead me to think otherwise. I'd like to see any statistics or really anything at all that supports his claim. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Anubis
Calaspia
718 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2008 : 12:00:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
Well, that is Dawkins opinion ... my experience would lead me to think otherwise. I'd like to see any statistics or really anything at all that supports his claim.
Mim, it would be interesting to know about "your experience", leading you to think otherwise. Spending considerable time in the London Borough of Tower Hamlets, as I do these days, I am constantly reminded of the "new atmosphere", especially since the adoption of 'religious hatred legislation' in this country. Increasingly, any public 'critical' discussion of theological matters just isn't allowed to happen. The last meeting of the local Council didn't finish it's agenda, largely because for some time now, all Council and Cabinet meetings are suspended for "prayers" half way through (and on this occasion, many councillors returned late). This will get worse in the future -- all four political parties (in Tower Hamlets) have now selected their candidates for the next General Election -- Labour, Conservative, Lib Dem and Respect .... and all four candidates are Muslim!
In the past, if you look at the local press, e.g. the East London Advertiser, there was frequent contentious correspondence regarding matters religious -- no more, no more. Any critical remark regarding the teaching of "beliefs", just might be published if it's related to Christian doctrine vis-a-vis, say, homosexuality .... but you will NEVER find a critical letter regarding the Muslim view of education or anything else; the editors dare not print what might "upset the Muslim community".
I've only touched the surface, but it's my experience I'm speaking about. Apparently, your experiences are different .... and I for one would appreciate hearing about them. So please enlighten us! Please ...... |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2008 : 12:07:13
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| You are talking about council meetings and claiming that this is in support of Dawkins claim that Islam is bringing 'creationism' into the classroom? |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Anubis
Calaspia
718 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2008 : 16:20:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
You are talking about council meetings and claiming that this is in support of Dawkins claim that Islam is bringing 'creationism' into the classroom?
Looking at what Dickie Dawkins is saying (NOT what the Daily Mail headlines/reportage is presenting) is that whereas, once upon a time, it was possible to critically discuss important theoretical/scientific topics, today that is less so; particularly when the 'line' comes from a Muslim mouth.
My post was expanding that thought, pointing out that although it is true in the classroom, it is also reflected in the much wider environment -- even (in the example of Tower Hamlets Council, determining local authority business.
To state the obvious and trivial, you are obviously entitled to disagree, strongly. The simple (and only) question I asked, Mim, was for enlightenment regarding your own experience, which you say is contrary to Dickie's opinion. So, please, share your experience with all of us ...... That's all I asked ..... |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2008 : 16:39:33
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My experience is that the average Muslim ... we are talking the normal everyday, work-a-day Muslim who has no issues with either other schools of thought or other religions. The main issue is between a relatively small minority that shout loud - extremists.
It was once upon a time nigh on impossible to discuss anything that was considered heretical by the 'Christian hierarchy' ... and not that long ago either relatively speaking. It is only when we stopped pandering to the minority that freedom to critically discuss issues regarding the various issues became possible and the same holds true for Muslim extremists. By pandering to that vocal minority we are giving them a power they do not deserve and the average Muslim does not want them to have either.
The issue is not so much the Muslims but a small, relatively extremely small minority of Islamic extremists and an establishment that is insecure and prefers to blame that on anything and anyone but its own lamentable failure to be an establishment that works.
And then we have all the other small political groups that jump on the bandwagon ...the anarchists and the white nationalists and the far left and the far right and the environmentalists and the anti war and the pro war and the monster raving loony party's next door neighbours' cousins' break away group. And the main purpose is to keep everyone insecure and everyone unsure and suspicious and scared and suppressed. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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n/a
deleted
1567 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2008 : 18:14:07
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Bloudy hell someone who actually dares say what she means and I agree 100% the average Muslim does not want all the extremism or to be pandered to,I was at my pals house this morning and when I left I met "ALI" he is a muslim(works in apub!!) he was telling me about an incident in London (well Croydon) where a chap at Easter took the Cross he was carrying and hid it in his coat (fear of offending? or fear of the pc brigade?)We should be able to live in harmony !! not Fear! and Tower hamlets must be a load of muppets to only field Muslim candidates,as it will be seen for what it is a Stunt and the powers that be who have decided to only field muslims must rhyme with the dam word |
keep on smiling |
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Anubis
Calaspia
718 Posts |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
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Anubis
Calaspia
718 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2008 : 09:04:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
quote:
Originally posted by Anubis
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1041089/Atheist-Richard-Dawkins-blames-Muslims-importing-creationism-classrooms.html
Well, that is Dawkins opinion ... my experience would lead me to think otherwise. I'd like to see any statistics or really anything at all that supports his claim.
A sense of déjà vu?
déjà vu? Not at all, Mim. Dickie D had pointed out the common experience (discussed by many other than myself on this forum over recent months) an example of a general 'fear' of making critical comments of anything associated with Muslim ideology for fear of evoking the accusation of being 'racist' or stimulating 'religious hatred'. As I endeavoured (clearly unsuccessfully with you*, hopefully so with other readers?!) you had just missed the point he was making. Having drowned all your red herrings, I had hoped we might at long last have some comments on the important point Dickie raised ....
* your repeating your original response demonstrates this! As Jane Elliot (remember her?) said in her classic experiment, "you can say that about brown eyed people; they enter the classroom determined not to learn anything."
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2008 : 09:24:16
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Oh I wasn't referring to the discussion ... I was referring to the reposting.
I agree that Dawkins has some interesting points to make. I just do not think that jumping on the Muslim bandwagon is the right way to going about discussing those points. As for you hoping we might have a discussion ... ever thought that that is a two way street Anubis and not just you reiterating a previous post just because you do not, seemingly, care for the responses the first time around got you?
The fact is that it is extremism and fundamentalism (regardless of which particular root cause) as well as an inability to grasp that particular bull by the horns that has led to the absurdity that we see here.
As for Jane Elliot ... you would do well to remember her yourself Anubis! |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Anubis
Calaspia
718 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2008 : 11:28:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
Oh I wasn't referring to the discussion ... I was referring to the reposting.
I agree that Dawkins has some interesting points to make. I just do not think that jumping on the Muslim bandwagon is the right way to going about discussing those points. As for you hoping we might have a discussion ... ever thought that that is a two way street Anubis and not just you reiterating a previous post just because you do not, seemingly, care for the responses the first time around got you?
The fact is that it is extremism and fundamentalism (regardless of which particular root cause) as well as an inability to grasp that particular bull by the horns that has led to the absurdity that we see here.
As for Jane Elliot ... you would do well to remember her yourself Anubis!
"reiterating a previous post just because you do not, seemingly, care for the responses the first time around" --- no, re-iterating because I asked for your experiences that made you differ from Dickie on the question he posed, namely that individuals allow a view expressed by a Muslim to remain "un-challengeable" for fear of being accused of racism. I am still waiting for your said "experiences" !!
Sorry, your Jane Elliot response is just not understood ... |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2008 : 12:00:24
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| Well, never mind that ... are you going to discuss this further or are you more concerned with the poster rather then the posted? |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Anubis
Calaspia
718 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2008 : 14:59:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
Well, never mind that ... are you going to discuss this further or are you more concerned with the poster rather then the posted?
I have said all I wanted to say on this topic, above. If you had 'experiences' that contradicted my own, then I was interested to learn about them. (I am a disciple of Charles Darwin, whose motto was that he was always the most interested in evidence that contradicted his beliefs -- that's the best way to 'learn'.) If, in spite of what you said, you have no such 'experiences', Mim, then, tragically, that's the end of the discussion. If you do have such experiences, then please share them, so we can all learn .... |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2008 : 15:54:02
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| So why did you bother reposting the article if you have nothing further to add? |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Anubis
Calaspia
718 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2008 : 21:41:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
So why did you bother reposting the article if you have nothing further to add?
As I endeavoured (clearly unsuccessfully with you*, hopefully so with other readers?!) you had just missed the point he was making. Having drowned all your red herrings, I had hoped we might at long last have some comments on the important point Dickie raised ....
* your repeating your original response demonstrates this!
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6640 Posts |
Posted - 05/08/2008 : 21:53:25
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No Anubis, I did not miss the point he was making. I am fully aware of the point he was making. I merely question the fact that he found it necessary to make his point referring to the fear people have of offending Muslims when it is merely reiterating a misconception brought about by an over reaction to a relatively small percentage of extremists. Most Muslims I know are far more tolerant and accepting of the possibility of other views ... they may not agree with them but they accept that you have a right to hold them; they are even willing to discuss them which is a lot mroe then can be said for some of the Christian alternative views. He jumped on the bandwagon and quite frankly I thought a lot more of Dawkins and expected a lot more of him then hanging on to the coat-tails of misguided eejits.
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"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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return of the religious loonies