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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5851 Posts |
 Posted - 31/10/2007 : 07:24:07
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Abortion is an issue that has many ramifications; emotional, psychological - both long and short term, physiological - again both long and short term, societal and familial.
Mary Stopes called the findings of the committee that looked at the future provision of abortion "a victory for science over thinly-veiled ideological hokum".
Though I am certainly pro-choice, I do not think that relaxing the pre-procedural requirements to be advantageous to anyone other then the purse strings of an admittedly already overstretched NHS. quote:
There is no reason why women seeking an abortion should need the approval of two doctors, a group of MPs has said.
here
Here, here and here are some further articles and letters.
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"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
Edited by - Miriam Binder on 31/10/2007 07:24:57 |
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long time no see
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6771 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2007 : 07:32:42
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Catholics who are
the Main Trouble makers
every time these Debates happen. |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5851 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2007 : 07:54:03
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quote:
Originally posted by long time no see
Catholics who are
the Main Trouble makers
every time these Debates happen.
And yet another typical LTNS response. Vacuous in that it refers to a bigoted, prejudiced view and wholly without any attempt to address the issues.
Well done LTNS! |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5851 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2007 : 07:55:25
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| Well, I am off now for a while LTNS, let's see what other havoc you can create in my absence shall we? |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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long time no see
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6771 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2007 : 08:01:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
quote:
Originally posted by long time no see
Catholics who are
the Main Trouble makers
every time these Debates happen.
And yet another typical LTNS response.
Of Course.
You would not want every poster the same. |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5851 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2007 : 08:11:34
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quote:
Originally posted by long time no see
quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
And yet another typical LTNS response.
Of Course.
You would not want every poster the same.
Oops, sorry, my departure was delayed somewhat. You forgot to leave in the rest of my post LTNS which said "Vacuous in that it refers to a bigoted, prejudiced view and wholly without any attempt to address the issues."
Have fun!
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"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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long time no see
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6771 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2007 : 08:33:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Miriam Binder
Oops, sorry, my departure was delayed somewhat.
Well I am sure anyone who cares
knows you are no longer delayed.
Lets hope someone posts on your thread. |
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Fluffy Sheep
Discworld
1186 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2007 : 01:22:13
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I`ve read all those links posted by Miriam. AND I`m not a Catholic.
What really does make me BOIL, is when some UNSUBSTANTIATED opinions are given by what we have to rely on as Experts, as to what age an embryo can feel `pain`.
Now, I nurse patients who have brain damage, some from Strokes, others through various accidents and mis-haps. Sometimes when they can`t TELL us if they`re in pain, we have to try to observe for any indications of pain - and however watchful we are, sometimes we miss it and someone`s hurting and can`t tell us. (Alternative is a blanket dosing-out with painkillers, and we don`t want that either.) I really DON`T trust anyone telling me that someone isn`t feeling pain - I`ll watch and I`ll look for any signs I know, and get it dealt with when it`s there, recognisable.... and they tell us that embryo`s don`t feel pain at x number of weeks... How the HELL can anyone know?
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Row faster, slaves! Caesar wants to waterski! |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5851 Posts |
Posted - 01/11/2007 : 02:45:27
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If there is a nervous system, however rudimentary, I daresay that the capacity to 'feel' pain is there; which begs an additional and extremely interesting question. Is pain, or the potential to 'feel' pain on the part of the embryo relevant? And what degree of relevance should this potential to 'feel' pain have?
I recall reading about some condition - genetic? - where pain is not 'felt'. It was a young family where three(?) of the children in the family were unable to 'feel' pain. Which led to all sorts of complications. One of the children for instance carried on quite normally for three days whilst actually having a broken ankle. That the ankle was broken was an incontrovertible fact. Pain therefore must have been present as pain is a natural and automatic reflex used by the body to indicate that something is not quite as it should be. Pain was not 'felt' though in any recognisable way. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5851 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2007 : 19:52:20
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quote:
The ability to administer the second part of a medical abortion in the woman's own home could prevent some of the unfortunate occurrences that have happened - such as foetuses being delivered on the bus home from the clinic, which is clearly extremely distressing.
here
How about leaving the women in the secure environment of the hospital till the foetus is delivered? Oops sorry, what a stupid question ... that would mean they are using up beds wouldn't it?
I wonder if Des has ever had to face the dilemma of an abortion? Oops, another silly question. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Fluffy Sheep
Discworld
1186 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2007 : 20:49:22
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Of course they shouldn`t be sent home before the foetus is delivered. There could be serious risks of haemorrhage (however few patients would be at risk ) as well as the distressing psychological aspect.
BUT, the trouble with these girls staying in hospital - it`s going to be on the gynae ward, where they`ll be alongside women who`ve just miscarried, and women who`ve had ectopic pregnancies. And they talk to each other, and there`s a lot of emotional and hormonal high tides in a place like that. |
Row faster, slaves! Caesar wants to waterski! |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5851 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2007 : 21:03:23
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Well, that is exactly what will happen if we start letting these women and girls go home to take the second pill in the 'comfort' of their own homes.
Yes, the gynae ward is stressful and yes, there are going to be women there who are fighting to keep their babies or getting over having lost much wanted and dearly desired foetuses. A logistical nightmare I doubt me not. But should the fact that it is a logistical nightmare mean that we can play around with the physical, and emotional, wellbeing of women and girls who have for any number of reasons felt that the only option available to them is abortion? |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Fluffy Sheep
Discworld
1186 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2007 : 17:15:37
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| No, of course it shouldn`t. Nobody should be sent away from hospital too soon, that isn`t the answer. The answer is to reduce the `bed-blocking` that goes on when frail elderly folks are hospitalised and then pretty much dumped by their so-called caring families! Care homes with vacant beds wait for funding to be sorted out, and this can drag on for months. It`s so unfair on those patients, too. |
Row faster, slaves! Caesar wants to waterski! |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5851 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2007 : 18:33:38
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So we have two different issues here. The so called bed-blocking, whether it is brought about by 'uncaring families' or by the arduous, lenghty and complex funding process for care-homes ... which are being closed down at a rate of knots. And the fact that it is not advisable to send women or girls home before the 'medical abortion' has been completed.
I am more and more inclined to think that rather then this being a 'Victory for science' this is a 'Victory for the Accountants' |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Fluffy Sheep
Discworld
1186 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2007 : 19:12:19
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| My old boss at the nursing home (which has since de-registered to become an excellent residential home) actually took in a patient WHILE HE WAS WAITING for the funding issue to be sorted out. They were out of pocket, too when sometimes a patient needed clothing, and their state pension `pocket money wasn`t enough to cover it. It was only the odd tenner here and there, but they never reclaimed it from our residents. And believe it or not, my boss was a failed accountant! |
Row faster, slaves! Caesar wants to waterski! |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5851 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2007 : 19:16:25
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| Fluffy, there are decent and honourable people in every walk of life ... your old boss evidently being one of them. Actually I don't find it that incredible that your old boss was a failed accountant ... evidently there was a heart beating away in there. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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long time no see
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6771 Posts |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5851 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2007 : 19:23:52
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| Yes LTNS ... I have already referred to his 'view' in a previous post. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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long time no see
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6771 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2007 : 19:25:18
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| ok. |
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thedelboy
Discworld
United Kingdom
1404 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2007 : 21:47:30
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| LT I am a Catholic(al be a lapsed one)I agree with abortion,but only for medical reasons;I do not agree with the way abortions seem to be a extra form of contraceptive nowadays!having said that who am I to judge? or even any other person who is not going through the somewhat traumatic experiance of deciding whether or not to have an abortion?? |
keep on smiling |
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thedelboy
Discworld
United Kingdom
1404 Posts |
Posted - 04/11/2007 : 21:48:12
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| LT I am a Catholic(al be a lapsed one)I agree with abortion,but only for medical reasons;I do not agree with the way abortions seem to be a extra form of contraceptive nowadays!having said that who am I to judge? or even any other person who is not going through the somewhat traumatic experiance of deciding whether or not to have an abortion?? |
keep on smiling |
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Fluffy Sheep
Discworld
1186 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 17:13:18
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| Despite counselling, and the need for 2 doctors to agree to an abortion, I can`t help having the belief that many women, especially the youngsters, make the decision under pressure from family or partner - whether their decision is to have the baby or the abortion. It works both ways. We speak of `choice`, but it`s not always that simple. |
Row faster, slaves! Caesar wants to waterski! |
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long time no see
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6771 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 17:19:51
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Of Course they do it Under Pressure
Fluffy.
Maybe they are living with their Mother
and no other place to go.
That is a Vote of Termination.
FACT. |
Edited by - long time no see on 06/11/2007 17:21:32 |
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Fluffy Sheep
Discworld
1186 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 18:19:32
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| Not even that simple. There are girls living with their mothers (and siblings)who really aren`t ready to be mothers themselves, don`t really want to be mothers just yet, but for many youngsters, if they do get pregnant the decision to go ahead and have a baby is based on a hope of being rehoused in a little council house or flat. For them, this may be the only route to independence, and escape from home. |
Row faster, slaves! Caesar wants to waterski! |
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long time no see
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6771 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 18:22:10
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Yes that is very true as well.
Well the ones that get freedom
due to a Child
what happens in the end?
Apart from the few that pull through , of course. |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
5851 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 18:36:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Fluffy Sheep
Not even that simple. There are girls living with their mothers (and siblings)who really aren`t ready to be mothers themselves, don`t really want to be mothers just yet, but for many youngsters, if they do get pregnant the decision to go ahead and have a baby is based on a hope of being rehoused in a little council house or flat. For them, this may be the only route to independence, and escape from home.
They are though a very small minority. I am not saying it does not happen, however the reality is very different.
Apart from which young mums, especially young teenage mums are far more likely to end up in some form of supported lodgings then independence. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Fluffy Sheep
Discworld
1186 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 19:14:14
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| My youngest is a really good mother. She was 16 when she was pregnant, and abortion never entered her head. She was noted by her teacher in the junior school as `motherly`, had a nurturing streak that made her take other younger or distressed children `under her wing`, and from the time she was old enough to babysit she was `broody`. The boyfriend was an idle, arrogant slob. My late hubby and I begged her not to leave home and try to set up house with him. Love is blind, so she persevered till my grandson was 8 months old, and the father started hitting her - then she had the sense (and I`m PROUD of her for this) to leave him and come home with her baby. Then she took up with another `lame duck`, so spoilt by his mum and sisters but a harmless, good-natured lad. Again, never a thought of having an abortion, but as he was more interested in his play-station than his baby daughter, she sent him packing home to his mum. My daughter really WANTED both her little ones, and put them first, and ended up with a good bloke who is great with her kids, but some of her old classmates who became single mums have NOT coped, one took off and left her baby with the grandparents, another told my daughter she`d no feelings for her daughter but it was the `only way out` to have her, and now to keep her. |
Row faster, slaves! Caesar wants to waterski! |
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long time no see
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6771 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 19:19:36
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Yes Fluffy everyone is never the same,
that is why it so sad these days,
with the Young Mums who leave the baby.
Of course, that Cathy come home film
shocked many
and that was 40 or more years ago. |
Edited by - long time no see on 06/11/2007 19:48:07 |
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long time no see
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6771 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 19:29:34
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long time no see
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6771 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 19:33:41
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Out on DVD now
I guess Schools can not show it
without getting parents permission or something.
So many young would not watch it
due to it not being in Color.
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Edited by - long time no see on 06/11/2007 19:35:09 |
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Fluffy Sheep
Discworld
1186 Posts |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 19:46:16
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I remember that film LT, it must be more than 30 years ago, because I didn`t understand it at the time!
Miriam, the very young - schoolgirl mums, or those already in care, are the ones who get priority for supported lodgings. A friend of one of my fosterlings went that way, and got lodgings outside the area...we took our fosterling to visit, but when we got there the girl had absconded and left her baby there. Lovely accommodation, nice homely women running the place, worried sick about the situation. Baby was fine, and was given up for adoption shortly after this incident. |
Row faster, slaves! Caesar wants to waterski! |
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Topic |
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victory for science???