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long time no see
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6771 Posts |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6167 Posts |
 Posted - 18/10/2007 : 07:02:50
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quote:
When one member of his audience suggested not all Muslims were terrorists he retorted: 'No one else is doing it.
here
And he would be wrong!
Christian terrorist groups:
Army of God - An American pro-life terrorist group.
God's Army - A terrorist group in Myanmar.
Nagaland Rebels (1947-present) Active in predominantly Christian state in Hindu majority India. Involved in several bombings in 2004.
National Liberation Front of Tripura (1989-present) A group that seeks the independence of Tripura from India to create a Christian Tripura.
Phineas Priesthood An American based Christian Identity movement.
National Democratic Front of Bodoland, active terrorist in the Indian state of Assam, involved in the murder of Bineshwar Brahma, prominent Hindu Bodo activist
Jewish terrorist groups:
Gush Emunim Underground (existed from 1979-1984.)
Irgun (existed from 1931 to 1948.)
Jewish Defense League (no longer actively engaged in terrorist actions.
Kach
Kahane Chai (designated as terrorist by Israel, the EU, and USA)
Other religious terrorists:
Aum Supreme Truth (Aum Shinrikyo) - Japan (homicidal religious cult)
Lord's Resistance Army - Christian/Pagan/Muslim terrorist group that operates in northern Uganda, it seeks to overthrow the Ugandan government and create a country based on the ten commandments.
He wants restrictions put on Muslim communities till they put their house in order? He considers himself a Christian? Let him start with restricting his own movements till he has put in order the Christian extremists.
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"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
Edited by - Miriam Binder on 18/10/2007 07:11:11 |
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long time no see
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6771 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2007 : 07:20:00
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He is does not follow a God.
Those Extremists you have listed
are No match to what he is talking about
in 2007.
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Edited by - long time no see on 18/10/2007 07:21:58 |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6167 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2007 : 07:35:34
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quote:
Originally posted by long time no see
He is does not follow a God.
Those Extremists you have listed
are No match to what he is talking about
in 2007.
Whether or not he follows a god is immaterial. He claimed that no one else was doing it. He is wrong! Extremism in all its various incarnations is the issue. We start viewing matters in the light of extremism, in whatever guise, versus tolerance and respect for others not of a given creed, whatever the creed. Our continued failure to do so will only lead to further resentment between the various schools of thought and viewpoints and to an increase in extremism, whatever the guise.
By the way, he also claimed that 'Western' society is more evolved. Western society is primarily based on Judeo-Christian values. So though he may not follow a god, he clearly holds with the basic principles of Judeo-Christian values. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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long time no see
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6771 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2007 : 08:02:21
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We do not Hang People
in public places.
You say he is wrong,
I say he is right. |
Edited by - long time no see on 18/10/2007 08:03:24 |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6167 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2007 : 08:07:16
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quote:
Originally posted by long time no see
You say he is wrong,
I say he is right.
So you too hold that no one but Islamists are terrorists? |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Borninhove
Discworld
1033 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2007 : 08:24:55
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5 weeks ago he wrote an article on this subject in the Times. For some reason, they have removed it from their website, but I found a copy of it here:
http://www.martinamisweb.com/commentary_files/911_cultofdeath.pdf
Interesting that you have taken over TB's mantle of "moral-equivilencer-in-chief" whenever a comment critical of Islam is made, Miriam. Despite the tiny examples you found (quite a few of which are now part of history) perhaps you should remember the words of Abdel Rahman al-Rashed (the general manager of the Dubai-based Al Arabiya TV station, who said (in 2004)quote:
It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslims.
Perhaps it might be more productive to concentrate on the "almost all" part rather than directing one's energies on desparate attempts to highlight the tiny remainder. |
 Valhalla, I am coming! |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6167 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2007 : 08:33:16
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| No ... I accept what you say BiH and I do not doubt for one moment that the majority of terrorist activities are based on a narrow interpretation of the Quran and can therefore be held to be Islamic. I have however always held that it is essential to separate the wheat from the chaff. To make clearly refutable statements such as 'No one else is doing it' is absurd. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Borninhove
Discworld
1033 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2007 : 09:05:28
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| It is a matter of degree. "No one else is doing it" is demonstrably false but hardly absurd. "Almost no one else is doing it", on the other hand, is true. Quibbling over the tiny percentage of world terrorism that is not in some way related to Islam and expressing indignation if someone forgets an "almost" or a "hardly" or a "99%" might, in some cases, be seen as absurd. |
Valhalla, I am coming! |
Edited by - Borninhove on 18/10/2007 09:06:32 |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6167 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2007 : 09:13:48
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Okay, let's not argue about the degree of wrongness. The fact is though that when you put that statement alongside everything else he was saying then it is not only demonstrably false but likely to lead to everything else being dismissed as the rantings of a Blithering Neolithic Partisan thug - as has clearly been done by Terry Eagleton.
Martin Amis launches fresh attack on Muslim faith saying Islamic states are 'less evolved' was the original link that LTNS provided when he started this thread and that was what I responded to. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Tombstone Blues
Earthsea
2248 Posts |
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Borninhove
Discworld
1033 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2007 : 09:37:33
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Fair enough, but when you read through Amis's statements in the Mail does what he says really strike you as equivilant to BNP rantings?
What I would have to disgree with is this comment of Amis's: "There is no inoffensive way to put this - by evolved, I mean more civilised. We have more respect for civil society." There are certain areas where this respect is evident (comparative degrees of corruption/nepotism / ability to queue / provision of state-funded culture (libraries/museums etc) but in other areas I would say the Muslim world is FAR more 'civilised' that a modern Western nation like the UK (respect for the elderly/parents / civility in day-to-day discourse / care for family/society over the individual). To say that the Western world is more 'evolved' is not exactly a ringing endorsement for evolution. If our evolved, civilised society only leads to selfishness, greed, ignorance, reality TV, asbos, 24-hr CCTV surveillance, exponentially increasing internet porn, global warming and binge-drinking brawls then perhaps this is a road that "evolving" societies would want to avoid. |
Valhalla, I am coming! |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6167 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2007 : 09:48:41
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No, not me ... but then I tend to filter everything through my own 'rhyme and reason' detector. And I tend to agree with you regarding the degree of civilisation to an extent. I think that the primary difference is that the view of our place in society. The Western world tends to view itself as a collection of individuals with an almost insatiable drive for self gratification.
I am hopeful that if Islamic society is indeed going through its 'enlightenment' that it will not take the same route Western Society has taken and that it will retain much of its essentially collective view of society. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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long time no see
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6771 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2007 : 09:59:03
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I also put the Edited
Ch4 link - i hope they soon put the video up and you can watch
John Snow talking to him.
He is bang on right
about getting house in order
because Muslims do not do that. |
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Borninhove
Discworld
1033 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2007 : 10:04:57
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| Thanks for the links, TB. I have now copied all six of Ali Eteraz's articles and am looking forward to reading through them. He does promise there is one more on the way. In many ways, Eteraz has a similar agenda to Amis, who states "'The anti-Semites, the psychotic misogynists and the homophobes are the Islamists.' |
Valhalla, I am coming! |
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Miriam Binder
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6167 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2007 : 10:07:45
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quote:
Originally posted by long time no see
I also put the Edited
Ch4 link - i hope they soon put the video up and you can watch
John Snow talking to him.
He is bang on right
about getting house in order
because Muslims do not do that.
Wrong ... some Muslims do. We would be far more effective if we concentrated on supporting those that do try and address the issues then by haranguing them on mass for those who don't. |
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" - Benjamin Franklin |
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Anubis
Barsoom
385 Posts |
Posted - 18/10/2007 : 13:33:25
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Between them, MB and TB have made some really excellent contributions to this post -- Miriam really set the ball rolling in the right direction with her "listing" ... which I'm sure, in itself, must be the "understatement" of the century ....
The ONLY angle that worries me is that the word "terrorist" also becomes part of the vocabulary of reaction. When agents were parachuted into Czechoslovakia to ambush Heydrich, the Nazi press obviously described them as "bandits" and "terrorists" (and Britain was described on Berlin Radio in terms rather like those used to describe Iran's support for the Iraqi resistance by Washington today).
I am NOT attempting to argue against the really excellent points made by most contributors and am certainly not claiming "terrorism" could be seen as a morally acceptable form of protest in today's UK .... but, at times, boundaries are vague and undefined.
Secular Islamic states have existed happily -- e.g. Saddam's Iraq (!) ... although I admit I'm on dodgy ground if I use words like "happily" existed! |
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long time no see
Earthsea
United Kingdom
6771 Posts |
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Borninhove
Discworld
1033 Posts |
Posted - 31/10/2007 : 04:14:15
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| Thanks for the link, LT. There have been so many accusations of racism, fascism and a huge overuse of the meaningless, ludicrous neologism "Islamophobia" against Amis in the Comment is Free section of the Guardian over the last couple of weeks that it will be good to hear what the man actually said. |
Valhalla, I am coming! |
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Topic |
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Martin Amis on Islamic States